Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

Prairie I did not work in the city and did not attend Eton but my experience of the private sector was quite similar to to that described by rabbit.

no , please try not to crack, good teachers are recognised and appreciated by parents but surely you have also read the many posts on MN about teachers who really have difficulty with spelling and grammar. I also remember posts from parents, concerned because their dc were being taught incorrect facts at secondary level. I specifically remember one about history teaching. It stuck in my mind because I am an historian. I assume that all my dd's teachers are doing a good job, unless I come across evidence to the contrary and I assume this is the attitude most parents have. However, few parents are beyond worrying about their dc's education.

What makes teaching a so highly criticised profession these days is probably down to parental worry, exacerbated by the extent of current media focus on failing education standards - not all of it unjustified. There are few other professions or lines of work I can think of which bear so direct an influence on the current well-being of our dc and their future prospects. Our dc are at school for a very long period of time each week. It isn't always easy for a parent to counter-balance the effect of school on a dc's behaviour and academic achievement. If things are going great at school, we probably don't seem appreciative but when things go badly, of course we get extremely worried about it. I doubt that past generations of parents were bombarded with quite the amount of media focus on education standards that we are these days.

Teacher pay is very low, imo.

In anyother profession, if you want the highest calibre candidates it is simple: you offer a competitive salary.

The higher salary will lead to more competition, and to only the best candiates getting through, this wil improve standards.

Also, and sadly, parents and pupils will respect teachers more if they are high earners.

Obviously there is no money to do this, so what can be done? Not much IMO.

My parents are teachers, they started out 50 years ago. My mum was able to buy her own house on her teaching salary. Being a teacher was on par, in terms of respect and salary, with being a doctor or an engineer or any other qualified professional.

Tbh, I think lots of professions, nursing, policing AND teaching are underpaid.

Salaries just never kept up with inflation.

Arisbottle when did you leave and what did you do because it's not the experience of our various well educated f&f working in diff private sectors?

I don't think salaries come into it. Most long serving teachers aren't in the job for wages, pensions or holidays.

In other words, what puts a lot of people off teaching is the imagined low status, workload and pay prior to entering the profession. What puts a lot of people off once in the profession is bad behaviour in the classroom and the amount of time spent on activities that are not actually "teaching."

BANG! Nail hits head dead centre.

I am a "high flyer" who wanted to teach but I went into university teaching because I had a passion for my subject and I wanted to pass on my knowledge and passion. I now work in the independent sector for the same reasons.

I do not need to be bused on a daily basis by ignorant , rude, crude, disdainful, disrespectful ill mannered lazy couldnt care less shameless so called young people . Its the raw material that needs changing not the teachers. PARENTS need to shape up and send children who ready to be taught and they need to make sure they keep them that way.

Its not just a few state schools who siffer from the behaviour problem, its a good many - even the majority.

Ronaldo - well that's not going to happen quickly. Schools need tougher disiplinary powers and teachers need to feel unafraid.

I worked at quite a high level in retail management . I left about eight years ago. I am being deliberately vague . I left because I wanted to feel I was contributing and I wanted to see more of my children . I figured the paycut was worth it.

Ronaldo I went into teaching for similar reasons and get all that from the state sector. What an awful attitude you have to 93% of the population .

Brycie what disciplinary powers do you want us to have, that we do not already have ?

I agree those powers may not be used well but I don't think I want any more power.

Well, my dss are at a state primary and I think the behaviour of the children is perfectly OK and the teachers all work hard, but what impresses me the most as a parent is that when I go to talk to the teachers at parents' evening, they really do seem to have understood my children as whole people - not just their academic achievements, but the way they work and think. The teachers really do care about my children. My children have gained hugely from going to that school, emotionally, socially and academically and it has inspired them to want to learn - ie I have felt it has always been a good partnership between school and home. Frankly, I don't think teaching is at all easy, not if it is to be done brilliantly, which I think most parents concerned about education would rather like, if possible! Unfortunately, if the trust between parents and teachers has broken down, then all you get is defensiveness on both sides, because that is human nature, and where you get everyone being defensive, you don't get a happy outcome. If the government is trying some psychological way of improving peoples' views of the teaching profession, it is doing it with a rather blunt instrument.

Teacher training (whether primary or secondary) needs to be overhauled, with much more rigorous selection criteria. Teachers ought to have Masters Degrees in Teaching.

But when you can access a teacher training degree course with very poor a level results, take maths gcse several times until you manage to scrape a C grade ..

I know this doesn't apply to ALL teachers.

I don't think teaching has ever been a particularly respected profession in this country, particularly not primary school teaching. I think it has always suffered from the rampant sexism that was also part of our class structure - the belief that any form of involvement with young people is easy work that shouldn't tax the brain or provide any huge challenge; not like concerning yourself with world domination. After all, women took the main responsibility for all that, didn't they, and women were silly, weak individuals not fit for anything much else, so it stood to reason that it must be easy, or they wouldn't be doing it, and any man involved in it must be a bit weird...

rabbitstew - there was an interview with Bill Clinton in the FT a few months ago where he explained that the reason why primary schools had all gone down the drain was that intelligent women were all working as investment bankers/lawyers/doctors these days. In the past, primary school teaching was one of the only careers available to women and it got away with paying peanuts. These days it still pays peanuts and no longer gets away with it.

Ronaldo, most children in state schools are not as you describe. The majority do want to learn, even in more challenging schools. Sadly their time is often wasted because teachers have to focus so much attention on dealing with the disruptive minority.
I'm not sure what "powers" you could give teachers though.

Think there is a definite difference in the perception of primary and secondary, even though pay is the same. Most sec teachers have done a subject degree in an "academic" subject, which often have reasonable entry requirements, and if course, more men do it.

and what do primary teachers have goinnowhere?

Many have teaching degrees, and I think there are some people who think you can waltz in with any old A levels for those. Not my opinion, hence "" around the word academic. We are talking about perception and image.

Arisbottle: well there you may have called my bluff. I am thinking mainly of exclusion. When reading about behaviour problems I tend to side with the teacher and feel sympathy that their hands are tied, rather than realising they have powers which they've chosen not to use.

Someone was speaking about the disruptive minority, and I do agree. The power of one to ruin things for so many others doesn't seem to have been properly dealt with over the years.

Not all degrees are equal. Aren't tt colleges/courses becoming more discriminating without this latest thing? I understand a 2:1 is required. Still a 2:1 is an old 2:2 (sweeping)

Ronaldo, most children in state schools are not as you describe. The majority do want to learn, even in more challenging schools. Sadly their time is often wasted because teachers have to focus so much attention on dealing with the disruptive minority

I agree not all the children are as I describe but unfortunately it is a large minority who are disruptive and make teaching all but impossible for much of the time.

This large minority ( in challenging schools it can be more than a third of a class - every class, even in top sets) invariably bring standards of behaviour, academic achievement and aspiration down for all.

As years have gone on things have not improved, they get worse year on year. I worked in challenging schools for 20 of the 25 years I have spent in a school classroom so I think I have a handle on what I am talking about.

Sadly all too often when any6one mentions this real problem there are too many whose standards are either much lower than mine or who just refuse to see the truth, who shout it down. They argue teachers like me are poor, have a bad attitude etc. when all we are trying to do is tell you what is happening. I suspect a lot of parents do not have a clue exactly how bad things are in the DC's classrooms. It?s no use asking DS+C as they often have no comparison point...... Neither did I until I moved out of the state sector and saw for myself what it should be like.

What can be done? What powers can you give me?
Well nothing can be done until you rid me of this (large and growing) disruptive "minority". Give me the power to get them out of my classroom and LET ME TEACH

I know the nay sayers and the all inclusive, everyone must be treated equally, we want all our DC to mix with every type of sub culture and group will not like that. They are the ones who stand in the way of YOUR child?s education. I know that is not politically correct but it is a fact.

Meanwhile people like me will move (rather more quickly than I did because I had some false sense of wanting to "help?) into the private sector, where most often pay, status and conditions are better overall. They know how to get the best teachers.

Ronaldo I went into teaching for similar reasons and get all that from the state sector. What an awful attitude you have to 93% of the population

Arisbotle, you are part of the problem with statements like this. Be part of the solution! Many of your colleagues are getting a raw deal in the classroom. Many of them are abused daily and you would rather blame me ( and them ) than admit the "attitude" comes from many years of abuse.

I have worked in those "challenging" (thats an understatement) schools for much of my school teaching career. I know what I am talking about. I was one of those "head hunted" by a previous government inititive back in the 1990's when they said they needed top graduates and university teachers to "turn things around" Seen it, done it, got a tee shirt and am watching a re run of the video now.