Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

No one is going to employ masses of teachers and teacher wages are frozen so I'm not sure of your point.

I am another one Govey would approve of. String of A's, excellent degree etc etc. The assumption that you are mediocre and so on, bothers me far more than pay. I am the only one of my many similar friends in teaching, the rest chose law, accountancy, consultancy. They did see it as too low paid and think dealing with teenagers is too tough.

i am confused by the way in which teaching and education is constructed here. I did my first degree and trained to teach elsewhere. My degree was mostly theoretical physics, with all the complicated maths that entailled. I was bemused to find that despite this, i needed to prove tgat i could calculate a mean in order to be qualified to teach here.

I have just recently finished an MA for which I wrote a 20 000 word dissertation. If I were training to teach now, this would apparently not be proof that i can write a sentence, or use punctuation correctly. [confused)

What seems completely illogical to me is that these tests are so far below the level of a PGCE i.e. they're the equivalent of a grade B at GCSE. So, if you want teachers to have the equivalent of a grade B at GCSE why not just ask for grade Bs at GCSE in English and Maths. What's the point of getting would-be teachers to go backwards in terms of their qualifications. It's insulting to Maths or English teachers but potentially a real and unnecessary obstacle to those would be teachers who just scraped a B or even a C in GCSEs in for example Maths but have gone on to be English teachers (like me) and never really needed to use those Maths skills from GCSE since passing it.

Whatever Prarieflower says, when I was looking around at potential careers, accountancy and law were one HELL of a lot more lucrative to the "best" graduates than teaching. Why would anyone want to go into social work or teaching in state schools if all you get are complaints and poor facilities? Much more tempting to work for a large firm which pays for your taxi home when you go home late at night, matches your payments into your pension scheme, offers you private healthcare, starts you as a TRAINEE on well above the average UK salary, continuously offers and pays for extra training to ensure you can specialise in your area of interest, provides you with a gym or gym membership, offers the chance to work overseas, takes you out for nice meals as you discuss your progress with your mentor, provides you with a ready-made social life with lots of other trainees your age, tells you how brilliant and clever you are to have got there etc.... by the time you realise you get all this in return for your soul, you've trapped yourself into a high mortgage and a lifestyle to go along with the income... and the rest of the world is poorer for the loss of such talent to other parts of the economy. The most lucrative careers have become so incredibly lucrative and far removed from normal life that a lot of people, seeing the state of the housing market and how expensive life is becoming, can be tempted into them - even people who might have made good and inspiring teachers...

Exactly, Chibi. You'd sort of hope that by the time you are a graduate and have therefore got decent grades in all the qualifications going that you would have achieved basic numeracy and literacy years ago. If not, then the problem isn't with teachers, it's with the education system in the first place. If C grades at GCSE in Maths and English (let alone A Levels and a degree) are not sufficient evidence of numeracy and literacy then that's where the problem lies!!!

I taught in French in Secondary for 10 years. I have A grade A levels and a 2:1 degree from a very well respected University. I did my PGCE at Cambridge University. I thought the skills tests at the time were easy to be honest.
The reason why I can't see myself going back to teaching is not the pay (it is reasonable if you live outside of London) or the workload (other jobs have long hours too. It is the appalling behaviour issues that ground me down day in day out. I loved teaching when I was given the chance to and I worked hard at it too. But a lot of the time I was not given the chance to as poor behaviour was not dealt with adequately and parents of the miscreants didn't give a toss that their child was spoiling lessons for a whole class. My mental health suffered in the end.

If secondary schools were nicer places to work in, Gove might find more people wanting to become teachers. Obviously not all schools are the same and I'm sure a good number of teachers don't have the same level of poor behaviour to deal with, but I am certainly not the only one who has left the profession because of this. And I'm sure I could have passed a harder skills test.

It was in answer to wages needing be higher if standards are risen.If a larger proportion of teachers have higher qualifications with a higher salary the cost will be enormous.What happens to the ones with lower qualifications?

This issue was tackled years ago.When my mother became a teacher you didn't even need a degree,by the time I qualified you did.From my understanding the non degree teachers were just treated the same(could well be wrong)and needing a degree didn't put people off joining the profession.

I guess you could have a 2 tier pay structure but then with tight budgets there is a danger of schools going for the cheaper option.

Personally I think a lot of high flyers aren't attracted to teaching because of the job itself not the salary.You have to be a particular type of person to a)want to teach maths to a load of challenging teenagers b)enjoy teaching maths to a load of challenging teenagers and c)actually be good at it.Uber bright people in my experience don't always make the best teachers.

I just think raising the standards over all is a good thing and trying to attract high flyers is a separate issue.

Happily confused I am not a teacher just because of my GCSEs but my A Levels, my degree, my MA and then my PGCE.

So this cannot be used as an excuse to have a pop at GCSEs.

Will this test raise standards ?
Doubtful as teachers have already shown themselves capable of achieving higher levels to gain their degree ...as someone pointed out it's all a bit of a red herring for political purposes (and have you seen the price of poisson rouge?)

Prairie I had a top job with a well regarded company and decided to leave that to go into teaching. So it is not a case of apples and pears at all. I was initially put off going into teaching my tales of the workload, imagined low status and pay. I wouldn't go back t my old job now, which suggests that the grass was actually greener

Katandkit not all secondary schools are tough, it is sad that you could not find a school that matched your skillet.

Yes. Brign those test on.lets all pass them and show the country we're not a bunch of illiterate babysitting holiday makers.

I think it is a reasonable move. Anyone who intends to teach will, I am sure, be quite capable of teaching himself the necessary spelling and grammar skills to pass this test in order to get onto the course. I would assume the necessary numeracy skills would already be there, but if not how long would it take you to acquire them? If it were me, I would get a textbook for maths and a grammar workbook for English and work through them. It really wouldn't take long to fill in the main gaps and would give teachers more confidence once qualified. I really don't see how it is a big deal. It affects future teachers and not those currently working in the profession.

Today I am so knackered that I think I just may be an illiterate , babysitting holiday maker.

Rabbit that isn't real life in the private sector-it's cloud cuckoo land.

You're confusing real life with top city,banking jobs and in my experience of Eton/Oxbridge educated bankers they are the last sort of people who would choose to hang out with challenging teenagers in inner city London.

In other words, what puts a lot of people off teaching is the imagined low status, workload and pay prior to entering the profession. What puts a lot of people off once in the profession is bad behaviour in the classroom and the amount of time spent on activities that are not actually "teaching."

It's my experience, Prarieflower... And there were quite a few very unhappy colleagues where I worked who would have made far better teachers than the unhappy lawyers they were. And, as I say, I do know a few bankers who subsequently went into teaching. They are not the poles apart you think, they are just people who got confused...

Now the wonderful Gove, wants to get rid of teachers' working rights too............and he wants to attract the top graduates. Whywould anyone want to work in a place where they have no protection?

Orange seriously you have no idea re protection.In the private sector you get 1 months notice and a weeks pay for each year you've worked there.If you don't work your arse off you're out-pronto.Tis quite scary if you change jobs which you have to do if you want more money etc.My dp's boss was sacked a week after he had an MRI scan.

Funny LaQueen but there is a limit to 3 attempts [hhmm]

Prarieflower

"Surely teachers just need to be better qualified on entering the profession and an increase of respect will follow."

On entering the profession (until recently) all teachers have a degree (normally Honours). How much more qualified do you want them you be?

As for respect they/we won't get that until papers/politicians and the general poublic stop taking cheap shots.

Re sillybillypoopoomummy:

I got a B in the subject I teach, but have had many students achieve A* in the few years I've been teaching.

This is because:
1, I am no longer a 16 year old student myself
2, I have since done a couple of degrees.
3, I've worked "in industry"
4, I've studied learning, neuroscience and child development (through my own volition)
5, I'm a trained teacher
6, I continue to train in my subject and it's pedagogy.
7, I bloody love what I do, and I'm good at it.

Why on earth do people think teaching is an easy option for lazy thick people?

And furthermore, what gives those outside of the industry, who have a very poor understanding of the job, a right to judge and comment? I don't tell you you're shit at your job and should justify everything you do with reams of paperwork. Why demonise a whole profession?

Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

LaQueen, the above goes for you too.