Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

And I know I forgot my closing speech marks .

But the message sent out by having tougher Numeracy and Literacy tests mixed with the notion that anyone at all can teach - those ideas are so at odds with each other as to be ludicrous.

As a teacher I don't have any problem eith making the tests tough. Why would I want colleagues who struggle? As a secondary school teacher I haven't actually come across any with poor literacy or numeracy anyway.

Evil very few graduates are going to walk out into a job with a car,expense accounts etc.You're not comparing like with like.These type of perks just don't exist anymore.A tiny fraction of grads will get jobs in lucrative careers and build up to such perks but that isn't the reality for the maj who are not going to walk into a vast plethora of jobs offering amazing perks.To be frank most grads these days will be lucky to get a job full stop.

The TA thing bugs me though as I've had shocking TAs in the past.Fat lot of good increasing standards with teachers if staff who spend a lot of time guiding,teaching,sometimes marking,taking group work have low standards.

As a teacher I don't have any problem eith making the tests tough

Neither do I. But how can that notion coexist beside 'actually - do you know what? Anyone can be a teacher, it's not difficult, you don't need any specific qualifications'.

The data produced by pwc disagrees with you, Prairie. I'm not making this stuff up! Gove doesn't just want graduates, he wants "top" graduates, so he needs to provide salaries and terms which compete. The information is easily available, and the average starting salary of graduates in 2012 taken on by the top 100 graduate companies was £29,000. I am not coming up with this in order to perpetuate a row. It's fact. Gove wants people to choose teaching over top 100 companies. He sees that as the key to improving standards in education. However, he is seemingly unwilling to make teaching a comparable profession.

It can't. If they try to improve"quality", they may reduce the quantity.

Gove doesn't just want graduates, he wants "top" graduates, so he needs to provide salaries and terms which compete.

You're right - and he also wants anyone to be a teacher.

Well, it seems to me that comparisons between the workloads of different types of jobs are utterly silly.

Does Prarieflower's dh HAVE to work the hours he does in order not to be sacked, or does he actually enjoy doing it? Could he actually work more efficiently and get home earlier if he really wanted to, or have more time sipping coffee and daydreaming at his desk in between meetings if he fancied rather than being totally consumed by work all day, and is his job physical or sedentary? Did he have to end up with the level of responsibility he now has, or could he have floated along on less pay and less responsibility?

Do all teachers work the same hours and have the same level of commitment and ambition, or is everyone talking about what a slacker could get away with? What about teachers who do ALL the things that different people seem to want from them, rather than insisting on sticking with their contractual terms, whether turning up to PTA events to help out and running after school clubs for free or spending hours preparing meticulous lesson plans, taking on mentoring responsibilities, doing leadership courses and projects to prove your desire to move forward in your career, "going the extra mile"??? And what about the sort of school that you work in? Different pressures, depending, surely? Is Prarieflower an expert on all schools? Isn't part of the issue that Prarieflower didn't take her teaching role quite as seriously when she did it as her dh takes his role?... Or did she try ever so hard to work like a dog for the benefit of all the children, parents, head teacher and other staff in the school where she used to work and still found that she had plenty of time to twiddle her thumbs? Or did she only do what she really had to, because she had a life outside of work, thank you very much? And is that the sort of teacher Michael Gove is looking for, or is he looking for the sort who will overwork themselves for the greater good?

And if you actually want teachers to overwork themselves for the greater good, then you should pay them more to do it, or you'll get people looking for a reasonable quality of life, instead....

I don't believe the type of people going for jobs in top companies in the city with the buzz that comes with that would want to go into teaching.It's apples and pears.You either want to teach or you don't,it has nothing to do with money.

Going into teaching these days isn't just about "teaching" in the traditional sense, though, is it?

And I know people who have chosen to leave the buzz of the City (along with their vast savings) after a few years to become teachers, so it can't be completely apples and pears.

Prairieflower - go and tell Xenia you don't think peoples' career choices have anything to do with money. I'm sure she'd disagree with you!

I do have to say that the 'teaching' part of my job is far and away the easiest part. Teaching a class is fun! It's all the rest that's hard.

Rabbit no dp has no choice.You only get 1 months notice if you don't perform as others have found out.Luckily for us he enjoys it.It's no different in most other private companies.

I worked comparable hours and enjoyed it.

Yes I can't comment on all schools/situations but neither can you.The fact is every sector has to keep on top of the game re training,standards etc-it's part of life.

Most workers on what teachers get are working their arses off(and don't have holidays to recharge).The hours my sister does on top of the hours traveling to clients/studying is exhausting.She can never recharge or switch off as she just doesn't get the holiday time(it's quite paltry).Yes I worked through a lot of the holidays but I still had a lot more than private sector workers get.

Sorry but teachers don't have it any worse than any other profession,we're all working harder for the same(or less money).

Not sure how these initiatives are going to cause more work-teachers will already have the qualifications.

Basically we are now saying what many have said over the past few years. GCSEs are worthless and degrees have becoming so devalued that other tests are now required for people entering teaching.

I think there is a massive issue about primary school teaching/teachers. They have to teach everything to children from the age of 4 to the age of 11. They have to be Jacks (or Jills) of all trades. They are expected to teach Literacy, Numeracy, History, Geography, an MFL, RE, science, PSHE, PE, Music, Art, identify those with SEN and cater for them (across the entire spectrum from those who are disabled to those who are g&t), identify those in need and who need the intervention of SS.

The system is fundamentally flawed and there needs to be a great deal more specialisation.

Remembers sadly the Head who once wrote "last year there was more boys than girls in Y1", the Y3 teacher who mixed up the x and y axes, the Y4 teacher who sent home incorrect spellings and when they were corrected by parents to the correct spellings for their children to learn and when the children wrote the correct spellings marked them wrong.

I do think Michael Gove has a point but I think it goes beyond primary teachers having better functional skills. Children who grow into adults cannot develop better functional skills within the system as it presently operates.

It's not about workload fgs. If fewer people get onto courses, and supply drops. Or if he only wants RG 2.1 grads, he may have to pay more.

Why do these threads always end up with a 'teachers have it so easy' argument. Every job has its pros and cons but very few jobs and very few professionals are treated in the media and by the general public so badly. No wonder children lack respect for their teachers (so misbehave and make life difficult for all involved) when their parents haven't. Until I was a parent and spoke to other parents I did not really believe that there were people who were so ignorant that they actually believed that teachers work from 9-3, do nothing on the weekend, evening or in the holidays, and use their inset days as an extra day off. Unbelievably there are and well educated people who when their child is told off by the teacher for not joining in an activity the parent comforts the child instead of backing the teacher up.

In countries with high educational standards teaching is considered to be an excellent profession, teachers are trusted to get on with their jobs, decisions about education are not made by politician but by academics, and parents respect the teachers.

There must be something wrong with the standard of GCSEs, degrees and teaching training qualificaions if someone with a Grade C in English and Maths and a degree has not got the required literacy and numeracy standard to teach.

If you want excellent teachers then you have to make teaching a profession that is respected and desirable. This does not have to be financial you just have to stop teacher bashing. Reborts like 'it is the teachers fault if pupils lack ambition', 'teachers are responsible for preventing anorexia and eating disorders', 'teachers need to start working harder and stay after school and work on the weekends', do not help make the profession desirable.

Entrance into teaching requires excellent grades in leaving cert in Ireland. If you are a postgrad the competition is fierce for places. It is a well respected profession in Ireland and up until recent....erm... Financial indiscretions in the donkey led government .... It has been a very well paid job. All the teachers I work with are driven, talented and proud of their career. The attitude to teaching in England makes me feel ill. High stress, low pay, no respect and questionable standards when it comes to entrance expectations all amount to a terrible job description. If the great and good are to stay (I'm looking at you Mrz) and the young, bright,driven ones are to sign up it has to be treated as a profession to be proud of.

Ooh loris sparkle I think we xposted with the same point. you are very clever have a gold star.

So everyone is still banging on about it being all about pay and holidays? Just a few beginning to suggest there might be other issues involved now. But still no one wants to address the elephant in the room do they? ... Nor will I as its so big it will trample me to death. But it does need to be dealt with nonetheless. Then you might find teaching attrating the best teachers in the game.

There is no money though and if you're going to employ masses of teachers on higher wages(which the country can't afford anyway) you'd have to have a massive cull of the less qualified teachers in order to pay for it.

Surely teachers just need to be better qualified on entering the profession and an increase of respect will follow.I suspect the lack of respect(I have never actually came across) would be down to Britain being quite low on international league tables.Surely this new initiative will help with that.