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Original poster

Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

999 replies

seeker · 19/08/2012 10:34

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

OP posts:
EugenesAxe · 20/08/2012 15:18

x-post lemonmuffin

CecilyP · 20/08/2012 15:28

Sadly I don't think many children transfer betwen grammar and secondary moden. Grammar schools are not so heartless to kick out a well behaved child who is achieving the national average hence the places aren't available. Also children build a friendship circle and do not want to change school.

Kick out is a bit of an emotive term. There was a girl in my class at grammar school (not sure how she got there - could have been a marking or administrative error) who was transferred to another school with which we had an arrangement at the end of second year. She really struggled and it would have been far more heartless to keep her there, regardless of friendship circle.

TalkinPeace2 · 20/08/2012 15:33

Kent is a fully grammar / secondary modern county (like Lincolnshire and Buckinghamshire)
seeker had little choice

CecilyP · 20/08/2012 15:35

Why did you enter him for the exam when you disapprove of selective schools?

Surely you have worked out by now that seeker disapproves of the selective system - a system that, in her part of the country, you cannot help but be part of.

The fact your son was friends with people who got through shows he's no fool - birds of a feather and all that.

What an odd thing to say. My best friend at primary (who didn't seem any less intelligent than me) failed the 11+. Does it mean that she was no fool to have been friends with me or that I was a fool to be friends with her?

Original poster
seeker · 20/08/2012 16:24

Because there are two schools in our town, the grammar and the high school.

As I have said several times, I am sure that my son will do well at the high school- it is a good school. ( there is no transfer from high to grammar, by the way). What I am objecting to is the fact that we have a system that tells 77% of the children in the town that they are not as good as the other 23%. And there are people who want this system to be expanded. You can dress it up with "choosing the right school for you" until they are blue in the face. Children are not stupid- if there is an exam that they either pass or fail, they know which side of the scales they are in!

OP posts:
OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 20/08/2012 16:43

Just because there are two schools in your town, SM and GS, does not mean you are forced to take the 11+.

Or are you saying that every child in Kent was forced into taking the 11+? If you are sure your ds will thrive in the SM and you are so anti the system, it does beg the question f why you allowed him to take the test.

I don't believe it's the system that tells children that they are either good enough or not. I think it's teachers and parents that do that. If the 11+ was referred to as an assesment rather than a test, and the schools were talked about by the adults as being equally good, but different, then you wouldnt have a child who thinks he's not clever enough. You would just have a child that thinks he's different to his friend, and there's no harm in that at all.

Original poster
seeker · 20/08/2012 17:01

"I don't believe it's the system that tells children that they are either good enough or not. I think it's teachers and parents that do that. If the 11+ was referred to as an assesment rather than a test, and the schools were talked about by the adults as being equally good, but different, then you wouldnt have a child who thinks he's not clever enough. You would just have a child that thinks he's different to his friend, and there's no harm in that at all."

Absolutely. And you are going to achieve this exactly how?

OP posts:
wordfactory · 20/08/2012 17:04

There are families in Kent who put their money where their mouth is.
They disagree with the system and refuse to perpetuate it by taking part.
They believe that if enough families do likewise, then the system will eventually break down.

In the same way that many on here insist that parents should not use private school to ensure that the two tier system doesn't perpetuate.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 20/08/2012 17:14

The same way we eventually got rid of words that are offensive to black or disabled people, I'm sure you can think of words I mean. It is just done determinedly and gradually. It could be done quite easily if the LAs who have this sort of system encouraged it to all their schools. The only problem is that, for them to do that, they would have to acknowledge that some of their schools are considered to be worse than others, and that will be much harder to achieve. Not impossible though.

exoticfruits · 20/08/2012 18:26

It is not so much the words as the attitude. I found the most hurtful thing at 11 was saying that when I grew up I wanted to be a vet (for example) and adults looked puzzled and said 'can you still do that?' I got totally fed up with explaining-it was easier to just say that I hadn't made up my mind. (really I wanted to be thoroughly rude and shout 'of course I * well can!')
Obviously, on the basis of one exam, aged 10yrs I was supposed to have shop assistant at the top of my aspirations!!

Hopefully the world has moved on and everyone realises that seeker's DS has just as much chance of being a top lawyer or doctor etc as a DC at the other school.

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 20/08/2012 18:31

Why do we need the 11 plus - surely the brightest can be put in the top set at a comprehensive that is properly streamed - that's what happened to me back in the day. And there was (albeit not much) some movement up to and down from teh top stream during the first couple of years.

flexybex · 20/08/2012 18:36

It hadn't moved on at some schools 10 years ago, sadly, exotic. In one school we viewed pre-11+ (i.e. our catchment SM) there were pictures of people polishing floors on the career's room wall. Oh dear. Not a good advert. I hope they've bucked their ideas up a bit over a decade!

Are you a vet?! Grin

flexybex · 20/08/2012 18:39

I think many of us would agree that we don't need the 11+, amothers. However, some of us live in counties whose blinkered councillors are living in a golden past, and choose to take no notice of the obvious corruptions within the system.

alemci · 20/08/2012 18:39

problem is where i used to work the kids weren't streamed (mixed comp) so the brightest ones were dragged down IMO. only streamed subject was maths.

the reasoning behind it was that in the lower sets, the ones who didn't want to work ruined it for the ones who did were not as academic as some of the brighter ones in higher sets so they did away with streams.

at option level it did become a bit better as the brighter ones would do separate science for example but they would still be all lumped together for English.

my kids are streamed at their school which is a comp and is a much better way forward IMO.

Milliways · 20/08/2012 18:47

My DD felt the same when she didn't get in to our grammar, but she made new friends, flew through school and graduated from Cambridge this year :)

Didn't stop me letting DS try, he got in & loves his school - just entering final year of 6th form.

If your son had got in you would have a different view, but do reassure him that he can enjoy being at the top of his Comprehensive and will soon have new friends, but can still see old friends at weekends.

lemonmuffin · 20/08/2012 18:52

I might be being stupid but i still dont get it, sorry.

In your part of the country is it compulsory for children to sit the 11-plus exam, whether you want them to or not?

Original poster
seeker · 20/08/2012 18:54

"There are families in Kent who put their money where their mouth is.
They disagree with the system and refuse to perpetuate it by taking part.
They believe that if enough families do likewise, then the system will eventually break down."

So what do they do- home educate?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 20/08/2012 18:58

Not a vet-I don't like blood or the possibility of being scratched etc! I did however get A'levels and to university-as many of us did. (and many of grammar school pupils left at 16yrs)
I don't get it either lemonmuffin-if you are in a grammar school area you need to take the exam-unless somewhere like Reading where it takes the very top from a much bigger area and where many choose the comprehensive because they are truly comprehensive.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 20/08/2012 19:00

No, it's not compulsory Lemon. Parents can choose to not apply for Grammar schools at all if they wish to keep their children away from the 11+.

exoticfruits · 20/08/2012 19:01

That is rubbish wordfactory. People get tutors-they do their utmost to get a place. I moved out of a grammar school area because I hate the system. I am a realist-I marketed my house as 'being in the grammar school catchment area' -it puts the price up!

exoticfruits · 20/08/2012 19:02

Seeker doesn't like the school allocated-why on earth would she opt for it without trying for the school she wanted? Confused

exoticfruits · 20/08/2012 19:04

The people who bought my house loved the system-confident their DS would pass. He failed. They appealed, they employed a solicitor, they still failed.

alemci · 20/08/2012 19:08

i bet most of them do have a tutor to get them in. some of the private school students apply to grammar schools to go in the 6th form

VivaLeBeaver · 20/08/2012 19:09

My niece comes across as not overly bright. She's behind where she should be in maths and Englishat school. She is getting extensive tuition for the 11plus, has to do an hour a night as well as Saturday class, this has been going on for a year now! If she passes it will prove what a bloody mockery the whole system is.