Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

[seeker]

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

Yes she does Exotic, she says that she is sure that her son will do well at the high school, and that it is a good school.

She could have opted out of applying to the GS if she had wanted to uphold her principles, but she didn't.

I don't have a problem with that btw, I like Grammars and would have applied for both my dc if we lived under the Kent system, but I think it's quite hypocritical to complain about a system while using it to your own families advantage.

In general people pay for a place these days-it is more of a mockery than it ever was.

I would hope that anyone would put their DC before principles. I was lucky to be able to move-it fitted in with a period when I would move anyway. Had I stayed I would have swallowed my principles and sent him to the grammar school-but I wouldn't have touched the secondary modern. (I was looking into private even if he did pass but the money would have been a huge factor)

DS was one of 5 or 6 children in his class to get 2 Level 5s and a Level 6 in his SATs. None of those children got a grammar school place (we are in a 'residual superselective grammar' area, not a wholly selective area like Kent).

The only child in the class who did get a place in a grammar got two 4bs and a 3 - though he had had over 2 years' of tutoring for the grammar school tests (no English or Maths in them).

'Selecting the best school for the more able' is sooooooooo not true of the reality of who gets into grammars. 'Selecting children on the basis of the depth of their parents' pockets' .....

Exactly teacherwith2kids-the system was always unfair-it is appalling now. Money is needed.

Some people pay for a place through private primary school or tuition, but not all do. And all children that get a place at grammar schools, even in grammar school ares where they take roughly the top 25%, have worked hard to get their place. In SS GSs where they take roughly the top 5%, children may or may not have been tutored, but every single one of them is worthy of a place. They coudk take the top 10% and probably find the standard of work is unchanged, but there arent enough places for that.

I find it quite sad that we have to diminish the achievements of these children who have put in a lot of effort to do the best they can on a test. Especially when many of them have not had a private tutor or been to private primary and have had to be motivated to do practice papers by their parents and themselves.

You're not opting out of the system by not taking the 11+. You are just choosing the high school. You still have all the baggage that entails. I wanted my Ds to be with his friends and to be with his academic peer group- I did not want him to be one of the 10 or so kids with 3 level 5s in his year. If I could have opted for a comprehensive school for my children I would have done.

@teacher I think you must have forgotten the 'in my area' bit of your comment? Where I live the reality of the Children who get into the one grammar in the entire LEA (and the neighboring LEAs also) is that they are by and large the very brightest. And in the case of our primary school, in Dd1's year, and in DS's year too, you could predict the children who would get in at about Y4. Or even earlier. And as far as I'm aware none of them had paid for tutoring (although several of them do have teachers or ex teachers (SAHMs) as parents). Nothing to do with depth of pockets.

Outraged,

Locally, the majority of children who get SS grammar school places have been at private primary (well over 50%).

Virtually all children at private primary are also privately tutored for a year (the schools hand out recommendations , it is expected).

All those children I have ever come across who have got into the grammars from state primaries have been tutored, for between 1 and 2 years.

I know of nobody locally who has ever got in through the 'practice papers by parents and themselves' route.

You only have to read MN to realise the level of tutoring-and that is just the ones that admit to it!
Of course they are clever but it should be a level playing field. If they all went in cold it would really sort them out. I would love an exam that you couldn't prepare for in any way-sadly impossible.

Mordion,

I agree that I can only comment on my area.

I would, in fact, be entirely fine if NONE of the children in DS's class had got in, as that would simply illustrate that none of them were of the required standard.

The fact that children of very significantly lower ability do get in, following extremely intensive coaching, is what seems to me to be wrong...

I am quite happy with a system that takes the top 5% and only 1 or 2 DCs per primary school get in-in that case MA is right-she isn't when 23% or more get in.

And I am still fascinated to hear what language you could use to describe the creaming off of the top 23 % of children in a town by exam and putting them in a separate school that would not leave the remaining 77% feeling they had somehow missed the cut!

Fair enough, if you haven't met anyone in your area that has passed by the parents and practice papers route. That's not my experience though.

At my ds's SS there are a quite a few children who passed just by doing work with their parents. I admit that they are in a minority, but even the ones who were formally tutored still put in a lot of work and effort. And they are all bright and worthy of their places.

There is still a waiting list full of children who passed by didn't score highly enough, so I feel confident that all the children that were offered a place were deserving of it because they not only passed the test but they scored highly.

You patronisingly tell them that they are at the 'school suited to them', seeker.

The fact that one child is at the grammar school with one mark more is neither here nor there!

Incidentally, I'm not a new person, I name changed a week or so ago because there was a bit of a stalking thing going on in a thread in another part of MN (a part I won't be going back to!). I was the (slightly misspelled) famous blue planet of the acteon galaxy before (google it if you don't know). So you are all used to disagreeing with me but none of you are scary!

In Reading they have 2 grammars; to cut a long story short, some disgruntled parents managed to generate a ballot as to whether they should become comprehensive. It fizzled out, as the issue is not as big there, but there maybe more appetite for it in your neck of the woods? Worth investigating.

Wordfactory , I totally agree with you..
Seeker, My eldest son is at a grammar not far from you, as you know.
My younger son is not going to the grammar with his brother and his friends because being dyscalculic, I knew there was a chance he would fail the maths.
He didn't even sit the test despite scoring full marks in every NVR he tries.
He is not sat at home,worrying about not being bright enough or missing his friends.
He,s excited about his new school because we,ve spent hours bigging it up, looking for the positives.
You really need to start doing the same

Agree with I. Parental positivity rules.

Are you really telling us that you would be positive about a state secondary modern, or even comprehensive, Xenia? I would love to be a fly on the wall!

I think I mentioned above daughter 2 not getting in daughter 1's school and that was not something that was handled negatively at all. There is nothing to stop many mumsnetters tamking on second jobs or working every weekend if they really want to pay a set of £10k school fees but they choose not to do so. Their choice.

My last year at primary school was spoilt by the divisions created by the 11 plus. We were all put into very unsubtle groupings - definite pass; borderline, getting all the attention; and fail. Those expected to pass were suddenly considered posh and stuck up by everyone else. The secondary moderns did not have sixth forms and were among the worst performing schools in the country (btw, I do mean country, not county). By the end of that year, the two groups (pass and fail), which had got on well until that final year, were pleased to see the back of each other. However you looked at it, the majority were having the cards stacked up against them already at the age of 10 or 11 and would have a long, hard fight to claw their way back from a system which concentrated on the 25% to the obvious detriment of the rest (except, of course, those who could pay to avoid going where an exam dictated they ought to be). If that is what a grammar school system has a tendency to produce, I think it's a shitty, stupid system - even if I was actually one of its beneficiaries. Grammar schools only have a place if the alternative is not considered a dumping ground for those who missed out in the lottery. So until someone comes up with a coherent logic for putting 25% of children into an entirely different school building and how to educate the remaining 75% effectively, I fail to see the point in grammar schools (the logic used to be that secondary moderns actually were for teaching entirely different skills. Since the alternative is now considered to be a "comprehensive" offering the same things as the grammar schools and capable of setting children according to ability, I can't quite see why grammar schools exist at all, except as a means of avoiding the hoi polloi altogether).

You're not answering my question seeker.

Did you choose to enter your son for the 11 plus exam or were you forced to?

"You really need to start doing the same"

I have! I am! I do!

How many times do I have to repeat this?