Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

[seeker]

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

I suppose the real question is what will you do, if your DS doesn't settle, isn't happy, or it turns out to be a terrible school?

We live in an area without grammar schools but have neighbouring areas with them. DCs' school and Head really anti them but it didn't stop about 1/3 of the class sitting for at least one selective/semi-selective test in Year 6. DS passed and was very, very fortunate to get a place at his second choice grammar but still felt a 'failure' for not getting into his first choice (that's him - nothing to do with us as we're happier as the school he's going to is easier for him to get to). He and the rest of his cohort who got into either grammars or selective streams of comp (6 out of 29) are all going to secondary school without their friends, as are a significant number of their classmates who are going to about 9 different comprehensives.

Many of those who chose not to put DCs in for the grammars did so because their DCs are exam phobic. But when DS and his 'grammar-bound' classmates were enjoying a stress free induction day, their comprehensive-bound' friends were having to sit tests at their secondary schools to band them. They will inevitably be labelled the swots or otherwise from the off...

I agree that there is obviously an overlap twixt those who pass and fail the 11+. DS has a friend who has always been on a level with him academically but didn't pass any of his 11+ exams (although he was lucky enough to get into a selective comprehensive into the top set). The difference twixt the two probably boiled down to speed ultimately.

DW failed her 11+, but as I've previously said, has done very well latterly in her academic career, coming from the type of background that you describe for yourself, Seeker. She is regarded as the academic one in the family even by her Oxbridge educated family members, but she would be first to admit she is not the brightest - what she has in her favour is that she studies really, really hard.

Anything and everything is possible with effort - as Seb Coe, Delia Smith and Alan Sugar exemplify!

Surprisingly enough, my ds spends very little time on mumsnet!

I thought I had played it down- I was very upset when he came out with the stuff about not being clever. We've had plenty of ordinary - big school wobbles. I was genuinely asking for suggestions.

I was particularly upset that despite everyone telling me that I was wrong about the socially divisive and psychologically damaging effect of selection, and me starting to think that perhaps I was wrong, these effects have manifested themselves in my own child. I tried very hard to protect him- but have to accept that it is impossible.

Sorry, Seeker, was not meaning to be unhelpful at all....

I think that when he starts his new school and discovers that he is one of the bright ones, the idea that he is not very clever (his words) and has 'failed' will fade very quickly.

In the meantime, try to concentrate on what he is better at than his friends and 'big up' those things.

As I've previously posted, we have a family friend whose son just missed out on a grammar school place (he was on the waiting list but didn't ultimately get offered a place), but did really,really well in GCSEs, A levels and got into a Russell Group University (and a top 10 one at that!). He has done significantly better than many of his 'brighter' primary school classmates who got scholarships to indies and some of whom passed the 11+ and went to grammar schools.

What I guess I was trying to say is that for some children and adults (as Xenia seems to say about herself) 'failure' can be the spur to out-achieve peers.....

Perhaps you could ask, of your DS's new school, under the Freedom of Information Act, how well the top cohort achieve at different markers through their secondary school careers - and compare with your local grammar schools. If your DS got a Level 6 in his KS2 SATs I am sure he will be understand what you will hopefully be able to demonstrate to him (that there is a massive overlap).

Incidentally, looking at the recently released (and probably not entirely definitive) league table for A Level results this year (it was in The Times on Friday), it seemed to me that there were comprehensives that did markedly better than some of the grammar schools.

seeker It's not that your DS can see what you post here, but I simply cannot believe that this doesn't pervade your real life.

Our DC pick up on our thoughts and feelings and they have a massive impact upon them.

You are against selective and private education. We get that. Most of us are against something. But enough already. You have to take some responsibility here. You have to stop yacking on and on about how wrong the system is. You have to stop letting it take up so much head space.

If you don't do that, then of course your DS will feel like the victim of a crap system.

Oh, of course it doesn't pervade my real life- don't be so silly.

And if debating stuff is yacking on and should be stopped then the whole of mumsnet should be shut down!

Why shouldn't she say that she feels the system is wrong? I am old enough to remember when a majority of places had Secondary Moderns and Grammar Schools. It was a deeply unpopular system. Many thought it was fine, until their child failed to get to the Grammar School.

I don't know whether it's the case now, but in those days, the funding was different and the grammar schools had a better capitation fee per pupil.

seeker I simply do not believe you that the whole issue doesn't affect your real life. I think you're deluding yourself about that.

Nor do I believe that you started this thread looking for advice on how to deal with your son.

You started this thread to make a point. You wanted to show all those who support grammar schools just how wrong they are and you used your son's unhappiness to prove your point.

FWIW I think you make some good points about selection. But now is not the time. Now is the time to park this obssession (and it is becoming that with you) and support your son. You say you thought you've been playing it down. Obviously not. And how could you, when here on MN you make it clear that you think the whole situation is tragic? You are only human afterall.

In your position I'd point out the reasons why your ds is going to the right school for him. I'd tell him that neither the SATs or the 11+ matters, what matters is the results he comes out with at the end of secondary school and he has the opportunity to do well in those.

I have one ds at SS GS and one ds who will be going to the local comp. ds2 doesn't even want to take the 11+ because he knows that there are more subjects on offer at the comp that he will enjoy and he wants to be able to walk to school. He would have a good chance of getting a place at the GS, but he knows it's not for him. We have the option of a proper, very good comprehensive school though which makes it easier.

One of the things that helped ds2 (and us) decide where would be best for him was looking at the two schools websites together. The comp has a much bigger range of GCSE options, a bigger choice of trips abroad, and has a trip to France in Y7, whereas the DS in the GS only got a trip to a museum in Y7. And he preferred the uniform.

lavol anyone is free to think and say what they feel. Of course.

But if one has negative feelings about a situation, then banging on and on about it, pretendng that it's debate or (as I've heard Seeker describe it )campaigning is not going to help assuage those negative feelings. In fact it compounds them, so one begins to turn somehting that's a bit rubbish into somehting terrible.

Kids pick up on this stuff. seeker's DS has clearly picked up on this stuff. She says it's the fault of everyone else around her. But as a parent I think we have to take the first chunk of responsibility for things. Passing the buck - meh.

Do all children have to take the 11+ where you are, seeker? Can't you opt out or aren't there any non-selective schools?

If he'd got a place would he be taking it up? If so then someone else's child presumably would be feeling the same. If you object to selection why participate?

But surely there will be other bright children at the non-grammar school? What about all the children who narrowly failed the 11+? It won't be seeker's ds, then a massive gap, then a load of scum throwing chairs and abusing the teachers. Kent attracts people who assume their dcs will be pass the 11+. Not everyone's dcs will make it into that 20+% and therefore there should be other "naice" dcs at the non-grammar schools.

I am sorry Seeker. it is a shame that there are not other good schools other than grammar where you live.

where i live there are good comprehensives and grammar schools in another county that the odd child from here may get into but it has got harder.

So you don't think anyone should have any sort of political debate about a subject which you happen to have personal involvement with?

Wordfactory- did you miss where I said that I had tried to protect my ds and have obviously failed? Of course I take responsibility for my behaviour- but as I have said repeatedly, I think the school he is going to a good one. I have not given him any negative views at all about it. The way the system works means that he is surrounded by negative views. Did you read the comment from a teacher I quoted? Or was that somehow my fault too?

god whats with all the 'just move' is that REALLY even remotely possible for most people in the current economic climate?!

seeker i am sorry your son is upset, i too failed the 11+ but i thrived at my secondary modern, got good gcse's and then went to the grammar school for my a levels.

my sister passed, our grades are pretty similar and we both went on to uni and got good degrees, it hasnt made any difference in the long run at all.

i did feel disappointed but i had lots of friends at my school and it worked out fine, plus i didnt envy my sister who had to get up at a god forsaken time to catch the bus to her school whilst i could walk to mine!

as you say it is impossible to shield your child when everyone where you live is expected to take the test and it is looked upon as a failure to not go to the grammar, particulary when a child IS bright etc.

tbh i wouldnt minimse his feelings, he is entitled to them, but i would just praise him, remind him of all he is good at and talk to him positively about the new school whilst letting him know you understand how he feels. in a few months time this will be forgotten hopefully once he is settled at his new school and enjoying it.

i would just try and make the most of the rest of the summer holidays, make some fun memories, they change so much once they go to high school (as you know!) enjoy this time with him and just concentrate on having fun and making him feel positive about himself xxx

we dont have the grammar system here, for which i am grateful tbh.

I didn't say that seeker.
But there are times when it becomes so personal that judgement is poor. It takes scrupulous self awareness to avoid.

If your ds is surrounded by negative views then that not neccesarily the fault of the system. It is just as likely to be the fault of the attitudes surrounding the system.

I'm not a big fan of the way the system works in Kent, although I am a big supporter of Grammar schools, but I think it all depends on how we view the system there.

If you look at the system and say 'children are tested and separated into a clever group and the stupid group and if they get into the clever group you go to a good school but if you get into the stupid group then you go to a dive', then I can understand why people are so against it.

But if we look at the same system and say 'children are assessed and then placed in a school that will best suit their individual needs' then it makes a lot of sense.

If your ds usually scores highly in academic tests, then you may have a good case for appeal, which is a big part of the way the Kent system seems to work.

I have a friend who works at a challenging Kent school - she says that they are very aware of those children that would have been more suited to the grammar school, but didn't pass the 11+ for whatever reason. She feels that they are accommodated well but has, on occasion, arranged for an out-of-year transfer to the grammar school. I don't know how common this is, and am not in Kent so have no personal experience at all, but that might be something to consider if your DS doesn't settle.

"But if we look at the same system and say 'children are assessed and then placed in a school that will best suit their individual needs' then it makes a lot of sense."

So on one morning children are sorted and there is little transfer if there are mistakes. Children might be able to transfer from secondary modern to grammar but I bet the nice but time child is not transferred from grammar to sink school.

It would be interesting to see what happened to the grammar school system if counties were in league tables for education.

There is lots of transfer though. The appeal system in Kent is huge, and if a family doesn't want to use the grammar school then they don't have to.

As I previously said, look at the League Table published in The Times (and I daresay, other broadsheets too) for A Level results....

The super-selectives near where we live all score very highly in the League Table, but it is apparent that some of the grammar schools seem to do less well than many of the good comprehensives.

Sorry I don't know Kent so wouldn't be able to identify grammar and comps to compare and contrast....

I think it would be interesting to look at the results of all the children who live in a particular postcode and compare two areas with a similar level of wealth.

Sadly I don't think many children transfer betwen grammar and secondary moden. Grammar schools are not so heartless to kick out a well behaved child who is achieving the national average hence the places aren't available. Also children build a friendship circle and do not want to change school.

I would rather have a system like Germany where the teacher's recommendation decides which school a child goes to if we were to have a selective system. Germany does better than the UK in the PISA tests as the decision on which school a child attends is carefully considered.

Here is the outcome of a data request I put into the Dfe about children not being educated in the LEA where they live
I'm still mining it
BUT - even a cursory glance is revealing
www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001071/index.shtml

Why did you enter him for the exam when you disapprove of selective schools?

Why did you get your son to try then, if you are so against them?

Sorry, but I don't think that because children can feel this way when they fail, the system should be scrapped. I do wish that it wasn't possible to teach children to pass though... I expect a lot of people naturally around the top 4 or 5% are missing out to children naturally in the top 6 or 7%, who have been tutored to death to get through. It does make sense to me to give the nation's 'brightest' (see prior caveat) the biggest challenge and chance of excelling.

The fact your son was friends with people who got through shows he's no fool - birds of a feather and all that. If he's still really bothered a year down the line he should reapply or retake and see where he is then. I know someone of massive intelligence whose son failed, but he retook and got in later on.