Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

[seeker]

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

Top 5% at what?

So a DC who gets one mark more in an exam can do Latin and the one with one mark less can't?!

Bright children still need support, teacher. Mental health problems, social skills problems and SEN are rife.

Certainly not rife in the grammar school I attended While I think smaller classes would be nice to have, there are some children who simply could not be educated in averaged sized classes, neither would teachers be able to cope.

In areas where only the top 5% go to grammar school, there are proper comprehensives, because as you say, there will always be plenty of children on the dividing line.

The local comp that my ds2 will b going to offers far far more subjects that the SS GS my ds1 attends. I can say with certainty that both my children will get simelar opportunities, but they are likely to be ones that appeal to each of them. They are both of simelar intelligence, but are very different children.

Top 5% as measured by any random educational indicator which should then be mirrored by success in the 11+ I suppose rabbit. Except at the boundary of course.

Yellowtip
"I also see a case for trying to create tests to divine potential at age 11 which is not contingent on tutoring or even parental intervention. "

I absolutely agree with you on that. It is not so much the grammar system itself but just how bad it is at properly identifying the children it is meant to serve best (free of other factors such as parental income, family background, previous education, coaching) that I find objectionable.

Interesting that people seem to think grammars mean smaller classes. Not in my experience.

Nor mine- they can manage to get away with bigger classes.

I agree children need to be identified in a much better way than they currently are, and I also think that there needs to be more provision for these children that don't fit the average mould.

Grammars OUGHT to mean larger classes, surely? Lots of children of similar intelligence, all academically able, no behavioural difficulties, no additional learning needs....

My experience doesn't suggest that grammar school classes are smaller either.

Plenty of children at GS have additional learning needs!

Talk to me about these subjects that only grammar school candidates can handle?

@teacher selective schools do get less per capita funding. Ours does, anyway. And due to the redefining of certain SEN conditions including dyslexia, to exclude children who are achieving averagely or better, ignoring any actual, you know,mprofessional diagnoses, the kids with those SEN conditions at selective schools will no longer get the little support they used to (well, it won't be funded anyway).

"Plenty of children at GS have additional learning needs!"

Not according to the league tables they don't!

Smaller classes? No chance? More money? No chance. Same level of intelligence? No chance (not even in a superselective). No behavioural difficulties? Less perhaps, but still scope for some. No additional learning needs? Why not? (my DD3 at a SS was deaf, as were a few of her peers. Others had other issues, all of which would fall under the umbrella term of 'additional learning needs').

Outraged,

i suppose I was comparing it with the 35 - 50% level of children with SEN in my - ordinary state primary - class. Acute eye tacking difficulties, foetal alcohol syndrome, moderate learning difficulties, minimal sight, physical disability, what might be dyslexia but might just be a response to horrific home background and early experiences, ASD, ADHD ... yes, some of those might also be present in a grammar school class, but many (and probably not the ones requiring the majority of TA time) might not?

Exactly Mordion. My DD was doing just fine so was not assessed as needing additional (funding) help by the CC. Regardless of the question of achieving potential.

Why can't the top 10 to 5% be educated seperately in a seperate class within a large comprehensive. That way if a child cannot cope with the pace of teaching then they could be gently moved to a different class.

Some children maybe gifted at maths, but very dyslexic and need extra support in English. The grammar school model falls flat and fails to recongise that a child maybe in the top 5% for some subject but need help in other subjects.

We could, of course, make selective schools even more contentious. Why limit selection to supposed intelligence and private tutoring? Why not require all candidates to pass a physical examination, tests on co-ordination, social awareness, general intelligence and ability to cope with stress and only accept the top 5%? There should be tonnes of potential to foster in children such as these, if they aren't held back by all the oddballs and dimwits.

he didn't fulfill required criteria.if your son had passed I imagine you'd be well chuffed - clearly you're not anti grammar school given you submitted hifir or 11+
explain calmly about disappointments
and fact he'll encounter ups and downs.such us life
I don't understand your ire,given you wanted a gs place and clearly encouraged he compete

@yellow My DD1 isn't the only child at the school with dyspraxia. I know of others with AS and at least two with SN caused by medical conditions. There are several with dyslexia too. But the way the LEA regards these things, none of those kids have any issues any more. Despite professional diagnoses etc. :(

Apologies, I used the term too loosly.

I imagine that there are some forms of SEN - such as high functioning autism - which might in fact be over-represented in the grammar school population.

There will be others - developmental delay, learning difficulty caused by mental handicap or damage, the effects of very dysfunctional family lives (children born drug addicted, to alcoholic mothers, or damaged through early neglect or abuse, ADHD - which are likely to be under-represented.