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Original poster

Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

999 replies

seeker · 19/08/2012 10:34

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

OP posts:
OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 20/08/2012 22:23

Rabbit, no, I'm not suggesting that they are special. Different maybe. Special, no.

There should be provision for all children. I don't believe comprehensives give the best possible education to children at the bottom of the academic intelligence table either.

teacherwith2kids · 20/08/2012 22:24

Outraged,

If you think that there is a 'magic' 5% at one end of the ability range who need a 'different' education, then I presume that you would ALSO be fully in favour of a school system in which 5% of the least 'academic' children were educated separately, while the 'most able' 95% were educated together?

Because if 5% of children need a 'different' education, then surely it would be absolutely fine for those 5% to have a separate education and the other 95% all together....

Yellowtip · 20/08/2012 22:25

But teacher you can argue that inequity through life - and some do. Oh so not fair about the boundary between A* and A grades at GCSE, let's go for a remark. Oh so not fair that my DC didn't get into Bristol because he's as bright as my neighbour's DC who did. This complaining about inequity at the bundaries goes on endlessly. The other argument is that a goal is a goal. Or that life is unfair.

seeker, I'm sorry for your boy feeling as he does - any mum would.

rabbitstew · 20/08/2012 22:26

??? What are PRUs???? I thought PRU stood for Prudential?!!

Sorry, not sure why one group of children needs to be educated in a different building if they are receiving an "identical" education to the children in another building????? Is it to avoid being held back by the wrong sort of children? In which case, the education will not be identical, even if the intellects of SOME of the children in the two different buildings are identical. Would there be a personality test to decide which building to send you to, instead? Or a socialisation test?

Yellowtip · 20/08/2012 22:26

Oops, thread has winged on while I've been slow typing.

CecilyP · 20/08/2012 22:27

And those children can have an identical education, it would just be in a different building.

But, seriously, what is the point of that?

Being bright deserves as much attention and resources given to it as being disadvantaged, or having SEN, or anything else.

I don't think it does; the bright and motivated can and do do an awful lot for themselves.

Yellowtip · 20/08/2012 22:28

Boundaries, not bundaries (that's a bit Oscar Wilde).

teacherwith2kids · 20/08/2012 22:29

Yellowtip,

The point is that there is a wholly viable alternative to such artificial boundaries.

I seem to remember in a similar thread a long way back that someone found the data that said that when comparing the average educational outcomes for ALL children in counties with comprehensive systems they were at least as good as, and often better than, counties with grammar systems once 'edge effects'' of children travelling across boundaries were eliminated.

So why keep a grammar system when the comprehensive system DOES do as good a job?

rabbitstew · 20/08/2012 22:30

I've said it before, I don't think grammar schools are suited for the brightest 5-25%, they are suited to the most academic. Plenty of exceptionally bright children have a miserable time in grammar schools - intelligence alone is a poor test of who will be suited to a traditional grammar school education.

Ouluckyduck · 20/08/2012 22:30

Teacherwith2kids, I believe we live in the same area. I know of one child who got into the top grammar school in the county who did less than four weeks preparation, and only at home. In my dd's junior school exactly those children got a place who you'd expect to get a place, and those who didn't straight off got in on appeal. My own dd had a tutor but only for nine months, and not one to one. She will be in the same class at he top grammar school as a girl from an inner city primary from a very rough part of town.

CecilyP · 20/08/2012 22:32

Pupil Referral Unit, rabbitstew - for children with serious behavioural problems.

5madthings · 20/08/2012 22:32

pru is a pupil referral unit, sometimes used for children with low attendance or behavioural problems etc, small classes and often the children need one on one support. there is a shortage of them, due to funding.

teacherwith2kids · 20/08/2012 22:32

Cecily, I was going to make the same point - that in fact selective schools should have significantly less funding per pupil because there is no reason for individual support, large classes can be easily managed, much learning can be independent etc.

In fact, a grammar system in which the funding for the secondary moderns is very much higher per pupil than the grammar, with exceptionally high funding for special schools for those with the most severe SEN, might even get a flicker of support from me...

Toughasoldboots · 20/08/2012 22:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
seeker · 20/08/2012 22:35

I could just about understand a school catering for the top 3-5%. just about. But the top quarter? Do they really need to be sequestered away from the hoi polloi like that? Why do they need to be in a separate building?

OP posts:
OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 20/08/2012 22:36

Bright does not always go with motivated! There are plenty of people that have done better for themselves than their more intelligent peers because they are more motivated.

PRUs are Pupil Referral Units.

I don't think that there is a magic 5% that deserve something special, that's ridiculous.

But I would be in favour of a system where needs, not intelligence were better identified and supported, and that works at both ends of the scale and everywhere in between.

It's not right that the more academically able are not pushed to achieve their potential because teacher in a comp know that they will do ok and they have more pressing needs. Its not right that the less academically able child is in a class that moves too fast for them so half of it doesn't even register.

Grammar schools aren't about the clever kids being separated because they are somehow better, they are about teaching the more traditionally academic subjects that those children are likely to be interested in.

teacherwith2kids · 20/08/2012 22:36

OuLD,

That's good to hear, especially as my direct experience and observation is so very different.

Yellowtip · 20/08/2012 22:36

I'm unconvinced by the Kent model teacher but I do see merit in either revamping secondary moderns so that they're finally fit for purpose, or for speckling superselectives around the country so that the top 5% attend them. I also see a case for trying to create tests to divine potential at age 11 which is not contingent on tutoring or even parental intervention.

LadySybildeChocolate · 20/08/2012 22:36

Bright children still need support, teacher. Mental health problems, social skills problems and SEN are rife. Larger classes don't necessarily benefit any child.

CecilyP · 20/08/2012 22:36

I think funding for grammar schools is/was often higher to pay for minority subjects for A level, especially when fewer children stayed on. Classes lower down the school are/were about the same as in any other school.

Original poster
seeker · 20/08/2012 22:37

Is it time to open the can of worms which is FSM representation at grammar schools?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 20/08/2012 22:37

I don't have any faith in children having the 'education to fit their needs' - who is to say that the needs haven't changed in 2 years. I often quote my brother. He failed at 11, passed at 12 and was in the express grammar school stream for the real high flyers at 13yrs. What were his needs? He started to shine at the grammar school because he did Latin and Greek and took off from there. He would never have found out in a secondary modern - the chances of doing Latin were nil. Fail an exam at 10 or 11 and doors are slammed - Latin being one of them. There is something wrong with a system that can have a DC fail at 11 and be in the top 2% at 13. He was the same person.

teacherwith2kids · 20/08/2012 22:37

"Grammar schools aren't about the clever kids being separated because they are somehow better, they are about teaching the more traditionally academic subjects that those children are likely to be interested in. "

And the top stream of the secondary modern who would LOVE to do those subjects, in fact are passionately interested in them, but don't have a chance to access them??

Yellowtip · 20/08/2012 22:37

Which are not. Terrible typing/ spelling tonight.

Original poster
seeker · 20/08/2012 22:39

""Grammar schools aren't about the clever kids being separated because they are somehow better, they are about teaching the more traditionally academic subjects that those children are likely to be interested in.

Like what? Apart from Latin?

OP posts: