Not one pupil in Knowsley went to Oxbridge last year and only 2% went to RG universities.

[thebestisyettocome]

In adjoining areas, Sefton and Halton, admission to Oxbridge was also 0%.

I'm really angry about this. No wonder people who can afford to send their children to private school.

<a class="break-all" href="//www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9412332/Top-10-universities-for-getting-a-job.html#?frame=2281800" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9412332/Top-10-universities-for-getting-a-job.html#?frame=2281800

An article in today's Telegraph offering some illustration of Fivecandles' point about employement rates and why some students might actively choose non-RG universities.

Does it not depend on the job though and the pay? I would not just go by where people get obs. It might be a job for life on £20k rather than one as a surgeon where you earn a lot more and other careers which are even much better paid than that. Well done to the nicksch son. How did he manage to get in with Bs and Cs? Sometimes you need to think tactically and pick a less difficult subject to enter. I think my oldest who did not read the subject she ended up in made the right choice of degree as she got into the institution she wanted (Bristol) and it was the place not the subject which in part would have helped her earn about £60k in her first qualified job.

Xenia
I'm getting worried now. Have just put in a data request to the Dfe about this exact matter.
I've asked - by institution - what percentage of students are repaying their student loans within 1, 3 and 5 years.
This INSTANTLY rules out low paid burger flipping jobs
BUT allows for PGCEs MSCs etc to flow through the stats.
I look forward to hearing the answer ....

On another thread I mentioned that the DD of a client of mine has got her first job. Because I badgered and supported them, her starting salary will be more than EITHER of her parents have EVER earned in a year. I am SO, SO, chuffed.

Xenia, my thoughts too wrt the jobs gained.

Most RG uni's do offer places for students who show potential from disadvantaged backgrounds/schools/parental education so it is possible to get onto top courses with B's and C's but not sure if that applied to Nickschick DS or if they were GCSE grades.

You cannot only blame the schools for not giving info to students. It's all there on the net and students do need to research it carefully. Mine did, but I still found out about courses from mumsnet which she missed.

Indeed. Most girls from my (private but small and not academic) private school did not go to university. I asked my Head if I could try. She said as I was a year young (I went to university at 17) I was too young to apply (which is rubbish as people can have gap years or go young like Ruth Lawrence) and I was not that bothered anyway and very keen to leave home so another year at school or home did not appeal. I think this wa about the year before Oxbridge moved to applying in upper sixth - so I would have had to do 7th term entry - you do 2 years at sixth form and then start the 3rd year - 7th term and my school would not have been geared up for that. I may well not have got in anyway of course.

I then did loads of research as I think in novels I read people wanted to get scholarships to university so I wrote off to quite a few. I was 16. I found one which did them and I got the school to let me six 3 x 3 hours of scholarship papers - they were really interesting - required no preparation - just long essays on fascinating topics and I won one which probably helped my CV and was a tiny bit of token extra money at university. That was entirely me. It wa snot my parent suggesting (although of course I was lucky to have them as they were supportive and they paid school fees which is rarely easy for any parent to afford).

So I certainly think teenagers today can do their own research too if they are sufficiently interested and a helpful parent makes a lot of difference too. I have not had any aim that my children earn X although I'd rather they were not on mumsnet in 15 years time whether boys or girls wondering how they can afford childcare, on the credit crunch threads , checking if Aldi is cheaper than Tesco and missing holidays due ot low income.,

One of the books I am reading on holiday is a business book and one aim of he writer is to work smart not hard. I am not against that principle. I think I earn the weekly minimum wage in an hour and that's great and goes back in part to my working so very very hard for A levels, 2 weeks off to have babies and working 6 or 7 day weeks which I adore anyway so I'm very lucky. However one thing I was thinking about is the bit of work I did yesterday was no worse or better or less enjoyable as the time I spent out on the water (am in the Med) on a boat and that I want my children to have the same - that their work is intrinsically intellectually interesting and they like it for its own sake, not just because it earns them X. If you are just selling boxes of product Z from your website I am not sure if the work is as interesting although I suppose everyohe including a milkman, contemplative nun and even heaven forfend a housewife can find pleasure in dull repetitive domestic tasks although I'm not sure how.

He got on with bs and cs (in gcse) because he had a very difficult time at secondary school his headteacher now a personal friend of ds wrote a letter to the uni,we personally went in to see the admin officer of his particular course ,he won a scholarship and mentoring and he did very well in his A levels.....hes just gained a high 2:1 in his first year,was invited back to 6th form college for the scholar ships awards this year and was mentioned in the speeches personally and at the moment hes doing a work placement at a solicitors.

To be honest whilst im not ignorant I didnt understand university applications and it was mumsnet and actually xenia you were one of them that encouraged us to apply to Russell groups.

How lovely. That's a nice story. I hope he does well. Sometimes it's all about whether a particular teenager can suddenly feel themselves motivated, often because of a parent or teacher at school or someone who inspires them or even a television programme. (I went there by the way.Good place.)
Someone I know a man whose daughter is very bright, one of the best at her comprehensive who wanted to do law. She got AAB which is very good for where she went to school, I think the best results in her school. I still don't understand why her school and her father let her go where her friends were going (an ex poly). It would take them about 10 minutes of internet research to see that she is not likely to get the job she wants having gone there . "So long as she/he's happy" is not always the best route with children and we would never apply it to toddlers wanting to each chocolate all day or 4 year olds refusing to go to school)

Talkingin - that would be interesting - who pays back student debt fatest. Perhap even look at how many of home students don't have any student debt (as their parents are rich enough to ensure they don't have any) - you might need to factor that in. I am not sure how students pay it back - some may choose to save for a deposit if they have spare money rather than use it to repay the debt.

Xenia he has to do well,as he himself says too many people have invested too much in him for him to let them down.

Also Im not just saying this because hes my son but we live in an area where uni isnt the norm and hes inspiring others to aim higher,hes helping people that wouldnt normally be able to find help easily (a friend was stabbed at a party and hes explained in lay mans terms whats happening, hes researched advice for a friend having problems with his contract of employment and helped write lots of cvs ) equally the suit he has,has been loaned out to friends receiving awards (prior to this everyone borrowed on of a few 'court' suits that are around )

Good for him.

I think most of all teenagers should try to choose a career they will enjoy, intellectually challenging, ideally well paid but something in 30 years they will still want to get out of bed to do (I do). If you can manage that life can be pretty good.

It's NOT just about schools, it's about the fact that the vast, vast majority of children from very working class families in the UK have an extremely narrow frame of reference in relation to culture outside of the educational curriculum.

I have worked at good sized state secondary schools where not one student played a musical instrument above grade 2, where students would NEVER voluntarily visit museums or galleries and where reading 'was for poofs'. Ditto children joining political or special interest pressure groups. Compared to even 50 years ago, working class culture in the UK in the UK is impoverished.

You have to be able to look beyond the estate and out towards the wider world to want to have the sort of academic success an Oxbridge education confers.

Don't forget that some universities charge higher fees and therefore may not be a first choice for pupils. With things being so expensive now many potential students are either not going to uni and training on the job, or staying at home and going to local unis.

Hi just thought I'd add my bit- I grew up in Sefton and Dh grew up in Knowsley.

Sefton is very mixed- south is basically very very deprived and north very affluent. There are 3 large private schools which I am know send dc to Oxbridge every year, all running bursary schemes so there is a bit of creaming off of bright pupils out of the state sector IMHO. In the North of the borough are some really high performing secondaries, it surprises me that none sent anyone to Oxbridge but as other posters have pointed out it may be because students have opted for Northern RG unis on cost etc. About 60% of my year at 6th form went to Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds for uni.

Knowsley is very different- it is mostly a desperately deprived area. I volunteered for a year in a mainstream secondary in Knowsley in preparation for the PGCE course I am about to start. In each year group is one, sometimes 2 entire forms of dc earmarked as needing 'special care' (and actually put in seperate classes, so their needs can be properly met)- either because they have been in the care system, have been involved with crime, are 'at risk' eg parents are drug addicts etc. So having been born to a teenage mum who has spent her life on benefits puts you quite far up the social hirearchy. The teachers were some of the most amazing individuals I have ever met, so so dedicated it is untrue. They make a school, which looks like a prison from the outside because of its location, the wire fences etc feel a safe pleasant place to be. I was involved with a group of Y9 students who had a reading age of 7 or less. All had horribly traumatic backgrounds. I don't think the lack of Oxbridge success is due to schools or teachers, but the challenges they face. It is a thankless task and they could earn just as much teaching in other schoolds, but choose not to.

The knock- on effect of this is that huge numbers of kids that live in Knowsley, whose parents are concerned about their education, send their kids to neighbouring areas for school. At my dcs primary, in a neighbouring authority about 50% of the kids travel from Knowsley.

Interesting debate.

I do get what five candles is trying to say.

it doesnt matter of 1/5 or 20 get into oxbridge/rg unis.

if that number increased to 30

it by itself the extra numbers.

would not improve the fairness and acesss of higher education from deprived backgrounds.

it would be a drop in the ocean so to speak.

as would need to be higher numbers and be a significant % of state school pupils to have any impact-hope this makes sense.

I know lots of people who mess up their gcses I was one of them.
sometimes in year 10/11 kids dont thik seriously about future yet alone know what they want to do.

I went to state comp- I think least 2 got in oxford I dare say a few got into rg but the ones who got top grades were those from the more affluent families., even some of the sets acadademic were based on parental income I kid you not and the town only had 1 comp. There was another comp in slightly more affuent town people went to, they went to catholic secondry-good results or they went to one of the 2 independants.

My ex went to boys school and dident get into oxford.
he wasent wealthy middle class yes he got independant school on bursery/assisted place. his school freinds were a real mix.
He went to york, his other 2school freinds went to cambridge, durham.
He had 1freind who went to the comp and they both studied computer science but his state freind went to hull.They both gots 1st and good jobs.

He did do maths and stayed on fo master.
I dont know many state school people who chose maths or sciences.

my best freind went same comp. she wanted to do bio medical science school dident tell her so she had to stay on 6th form extra year to complete chemistry alevel as thourght she just needed biology.

I went to a lesser poly turned uni to do business studies.

my 14year old stepsons just done his options for year 10

it consisists of

maths-foundation I suspect- as core
welsh gcse-again compulsary
english -not sure about lit as in my day only top groups did the lit bit.
single award science

he chose

gcse art
gcse pe
gnvq in hospitality/tourism-god knows why he has no interest in it as a career.

being cynical hes not academic they steering him towards soft subjects I be pleased if he leaves school any qualifications
hes in deprived area wales which scores even worse than england

There will always be regional differences.

Doesnt gove want to make school leaving age 18 now?
guess that manipulates employment figures.
The growing shame as the kids who leave at 16 and no gcses.
The kids that dont find work.

even jobs that used to be very practical/learn on the job have become very academic. demands for trades courses outweighs demand plumbing very competative at local few college.

Of course its august and when watch the news about a level/gsce results its mostly at the nice schools. The papers love to reel off the kids who have a crazy 15a* like they represent the norm,The media then moans its getting easier,grade inflation and we like to belive educations getting better.

As parents looking at secondrys. we drawn to the pass rate oh fab this school 70% have gcse a-c what about the other 30%who dont? of course they wont be my child they be in the 70.

The best schools especially the selective ones will get the best results.

I dont know of any state grammer schools within 100miles maybe more.

we have the situation of kids commuting outside lea boundries as the city is effectivly 4leas.

we get sold as parents we have choice.

but even the best state schools cost money to live within catchment.

Sometimes wonder if uni entrance test might not be better like in the states.

I think in international bacs quite good as means kids dont drop too many subjects and limit their chances but few schools offer that.

applying now kids have to ask

will this course get me a job
if stay local and live at home can save money
tuition fees even my local ex ploy is charging 9grand a year.
really know at 18what they want to to as would be too expensive to make a mistake.

used to be with oxbridge they looked beyond qualifications and looked extra curricular so sport/music/duke of endingbourgh award blimey i even did young enterprise for extra ucas points.

It's NOT just about schools, it's about the fact that the vast, vast majority of children from very working class families in the UK have an extremely narrow frame of reference in relation to culture outside of the educational curriculum.

I have worked at good sized state secondary schools where not one student played a musical instrument above grade 2, where students would NEVER voluntarily visit museums or galleries and where reading 'was for poofs'. Ditto children joining political or special interest pressure groups. Compared to even 50 years ago, working class culture in the UK in the UK is impoverished.

You have to be able to look beyond the estate and out towards the wider world to want to have the sort of academic success an Oxbridge education confers. *

Well said!!! There are a couple of other threads on the board where sadly teachers are resisting the idea of opening up schools to 'non-qualified' teachers, even thought this has the potential to vastily improve access by deprived children to adults with useful experience, insights, aspirations.... by getting in part-time semi-retired people from industry and commerce. The more exposere childnre have to high acheiving empathetic adults, the more likley they are to gain teh confidence to seek out better opportunities

Sorry!!! , tried to quote Shagmundrfreude's post, not plagiarise it...