Not one pupil in Knowsley went to Oxbridge last year and only 2% went to RG universities.

[thebestisyettocome]

In adjoining areas, Sefton and Halton, admission to Oxbridge was also 0%.

I'm really angry about this. No wonder people who can afford to send their children to private school.

You're very sensitive if you think that my pointing out your error was a 'lambasting'. How would you label the way you subsequently addressed me I wonder?

What? When I said you should 'fuck off to your statistics? That's common parlance in our house I'm afraid.

I grew up in Sefton and have lots of friends from Knowsley. I think Knowsley suffers, not just from financial poverty, but also from poverty of ambition, education, etc. so the applications to good unis may be lower than other areas.

My DB, now in his 40s, applied to Oxford and was turned down. In those days it was much more about results and academic ability than the all-roundedness they claim to look for now. He went on to get 5As at A level (almost unheard of in those days, so much so that he made the front page of the Liverpool Echo!) His school maintained that snobbery paid a big part in the decisions in those days and that if he had gone to private school or had less of a scouse accent he'd have got in. He went to a RG uni instead, got 1st class degrees in 2 subjects, got a PhD and is very successful.

You never know how these decisions are made but the schools were adamant, even back then, that kids from Liverpool had lower chances than others.

'It'll make a hell of a difference for those 'few' poor kids who do get into RG unis fivecandles.'

Well, yes, but as I said earlier, for every kid that gets in that means another one doesn't.

And we're talking about such a small percentage of kids who make it to university let alone the ones who don't get there at all.

I found this study which looks at graduate earnings of the 2004/5 cohort and how this is affected by subject, degree classification, institution type & geographical region.

It finds that RG graduates (especially male ones) do earn quite a bit more than those from other university types (catgorised as 'old', 'new' and 'other'), BUT, that after controlling for the heterogeneity of students, they found limited evidence that graduate earnings vary to any significant extent by the type of institution attended.

'What? When I said you should 'fuck off to your statistics? That's common parlance in our house I'm afraid.'

A case of double standards I fear. Nothing I've said comes close and yet it's me that gets accused of being 'rude' and 'ignorant'. Hmmm...

You tell Viperidae's db that he shouldn't have bothered to apply to a decent univesity then five.

Hahaha. You actually called me 'ignorant' five....

Pretty much what I suspected gelatinous. Of course, the students are self-selecting and then externally selected to get in in the first place - they're likely to be amongst the brightest and most ambitious kids in the country - so you'd expect them to go on to top jobs and higher incomes. There's still no evidence that the educational experience at a RG university gives graduates 'an edge'.

Which all just confirms my view that there's too much importance attachec to them. Why do we need a Russell Group?

@viperidae Did your DB do the entrance exam? I am also in my 40s. Of the 4 girls from my school (London comp) the 3 of us who got in were all WC second generation immigrants. The girl who didn't get in was posh. The exam was a great leveller, I think.

thebest, I said there was a lot of ignorance on this thread which is quite different. And remains quite true even with my misunderstanding your point about Exeter.

@five you called me ignorant. Which was a bit pot and kettle in the circumstances.

There's no evidence the 'brightest' kids in the country are getting into RGs. The best educated, most motivated etc perhaps but who's to say the brightest aren't rotting in failing schools?

'You tell Viperidae's db that he shouldn't have bothered to apply to a decent univesity then five.'

That's silly. I'm not saying don't go there and I'm not saying we shouldn't do more to get more working class kids in there. I'm just saying it's not the biggest challenge faced by young people and getting another couple of working class kids in to RG universities is not really going to make much differnce to social mobility or HE in this country.

I think it's no coincidence that the universities which attract the most private school pupils invented a special exclusive restricted entry 'club' not long after Oxbridge started making real improvements in state school access and social diversity. No coincidence at all.

Well, we do like out exclusive clubs in this country. And it's just a question of whether you fight to join the clubs and say 'Boo sucks' to the rest or whether you fight to get rid of the clubs in the first place.

haha. And in saying I failed to understand that you were referring to another poster when you used the word 'ignorant' you use the opportunity to call me ignorant again
In all honesty I do actually realise I am not particularly bright but please, stop reminding me of that fact five.

'@five you called me ignorant'

Quote please.

you'll have to fight your own fight fivecandles (and it is a noble one). In the meantime poor clever children should be given every opportunity to succeed.

I admitted in a post that I wasn't an expert on the subject to which you replied something along the lines of 'well you don't know very much then do you.'

'There's no evidence the 'brightest' kids in the country are getting into RGs. '

Well, this opens another can of worms doesn't it? At the moment the best measure we have of 'brightness' is A Level results and it is the case that kids with the best A Level results by and large get into RG universities.

It is also the case that there is a link between such grades and relative affluence/maternal qualfications.

Did you know that where two children are born with roughly the same ability there will be a discrepancy between their 'school readiness' at age 3 according to their social class which then widens once they reach shool age?

Again, part of my point is that getting our knickers in a twist about social inequalties in education when kid are already aged 17 is way, way too late because there's already a huge gulf in academic success according to social class.

I was taking issue with your statement that you can only do medicine or dentistry at a RG university rather than attacking you personally. We have established that this is incorrect. Apologies if I caused offense but you gave as good as you got and then some I'd say.

I haven't actually called anyone 'ignorant'. If you're going to say these things then you need to back them up with evidence which has been my point throughout. If you're not sure say you're not sure but I don't think you should say things that are blatantly untrue.

Ok. I got it wrong about the medicine thing but as I've said there are only a handful of non RGs that do it. You took that mistake and ran with it to discredit everything I subsequently said. I also suggested you were getting a little personal but you were so intent on making your point (which I don't disagree with ) you took no notice.
That said, I'm not a sensitive little flower and your apology is accepted. I also apologise if my use of the word 'fuck' obviously offended you.

omg five. I've just seen your latest post. I think I'm going to back away from this thread very slowly.