Not one pupil in Knowsley went to Oxbridge last year and only 2% went to RG universities.

[thebestisyettocome]

In adjoining areas, Sefton and Halton, admission to Oxbridge was also 0%.

I'm really angry about this. No wonder people who can afford to send their children to private school.

fivecandles. You were being extremely rude actually. If you need to infer somebody is stupid, ignorant, thick, pushy to win your argument i suggest you should fuck off back to your statistics.

'FWIW Ephiny, my beef is that children from these areas are not getting into top universities. fivecandles is arguing against the concept of prestigious universities.'

That's not what I'm arguing actually. Ephiny but it better when she said, 'you can't have it both ways in that the concept of an 'elite' group of universities is fairly incompatible with everyone getting in' which is more my point.

Ephiny,
'You can say though that bright students from 'deprived' backgrounds ought to have the same chance as those of similar ability (which many would argue is not the case currently). So not necessarily more 'kids' getting in overall, but a more equal distribution in terms of background. Of course life is not completely fair and equal, and probably never will be, but there are likely to be improvements that can be made, such as better careers advice in schools.'

I wouldn't disagree with any of that BUT what I have been arguing is:

1. People are too quick to assume that there are scores of students who are able and willing to go to RG univesities and are somehow being held back by bad advice and I dispute this based on the evidence that

a) they often don't have the best grades in the first place (more than half of all A* and A grades go to students from independent schools even though such students only account for less than 10% of all students)

b) there may be good reasons including cultural and financial reasons why students make a positive choice not to go to RG universities or because of the choice of course etc Kids from poor backgrounds are more likely to stay at home

and

2. Even if a few more kids from 'deprived' backgrounds got in to RG universities I'm not sure that would make much difference to anything really from the state of HE to social mobility to opportunities for young people. I don't think getting a few more kids into Oxbridge is the most important challenge in education that we have and yet it is a Mumsnet obsession over and above things that I think should be a bigger concern like the numbers of young people not oging to university or employment at all.

thebest, it's you who is being rude.

It is a fact that you have said things on this thread that are completely untrue. I was merely pointing this out. It's you that started this thread partly because you want students to have better advice isn't it? In which case it's probably a good idea if we all get our fact straight.

That's horrendous. Out of a cohort of 500 in my non-selective state sixth form college, 14 of us were awarded Oxbridge places. Admittedly this was a bumper year and it is a good sixth form - but there really is no excuse for an entire authority to have such a poor record.

I think low aspiration is the key. I only applied to Oxford because my teachers made me believe it was a possibility. Iwould never have had the confidence to apply.

Perhaps RG Universities need to be doing more outreach work in the areas where there are fewer applicants and they should be doing this early on, so that pupils begin to develop higher expectations for themselves.

If that's NOT what you are arguing fivecandles, I think you are very unclear in what you are actually trying to say.

ffs. I've made a couple of minor errors one of which was excluding Leicester University as a place that does medicine. I've also made it clear in most posts (a) I don't know that much about this subject (b) I may be wrong.
Please untwist your knickers, stop trying to make cheap points at my expense and let's try to have a proper debate.

'But you're closing the gap with Manchester and York, to skew the argument about the value of a university education at more extreme ends of the spectrum. York has joined RG now in any event.'

Then York is a really interesting comparison isn't it? Now, it's going to be a RG university so obviously there's no distinction between it and Manchester is there? And yet the OP is bemoaning the fact that so few students don't get into RG universities. Well, if they went to York that's not such a big deal is it? Or now Durham or Exeter?

Well, what about Sussex and Leicester and Nottingham? And all the rest?

My point is should we really be so upset about the numbers of students not getting into RG universities or should we be questioning the value of having a RG at all when what is classed as a RG university is clearly so arbitrary as with York?

'I've made a couple of minor errors one of which was excluding Leicester University as a place that does medicine'

thebest, I'm not the one making a big deal of this and I'm certainly not the one swearing and throwing around insults but I'd say given the nature of this thread it's really important to get the facts right. Saying that you can only do medicine at RG universities and Oxbridge is not a 'minor error' is it?

Would you say it was a minor error if that was the advice given to students by a teacher or careers service? Thought not.

Apologies, I must have misunderstood you then Metablis. You said, '@thebest As far as accountancy firms go a graduate from Exeter would definitely have the edge over a graduate from most universities. FWIW.'

I thought this was in response to my asking how Russell Group universities had 'the edge' over non Russell Group universities which is what an earlier poster had argued.

Obviously your point can't be evidence of such 'an edge' since Exeter isn't yet a RG university.

In fact, nobody has still offered any EVIDENCE of this so-called 'edge'.

@five you certainly are the one throwing round insults. And blatantly not apologising either. And if you are seriously arguing that large numbers of kids from knowsley are going to Exeter than we can add Exeter as another of those subjects about which you are ignorant.

The fact that thebest has made many incorrect statements in this thread doesn't make you any less ignorant you know.

Where have I thrown around insults please?

Metabilis, the best said,

'You have to go to Oxbridge or a RG to become a doctor or dentist'

This is incorrect.

'And if you are seriously arguing that large numbers of kids from knowsley are going to Exeter than we can add Exeter as another of those subjects about which you are ignorant. '

Eh? Where on earth have I suggested any such thing?

I see you have apologised. However my point about reading comprehension still stands since I was clearly addressing thebest and her erroneous statement about accountancy firms

I see you have apologised. However my point about reading comprehension still stands since I was clearly addressing thebest and her erroneous statement about accountancy firms

'But the whole RG thing is merely used as a convenient shorthand for Very Good University and it has since 1994 excluded other VGUs such as Durham, so it's a slightly pointless shorthand in any event.'

That's exactly my point. On the one hand it's a fairly arbitrary distinciton as is evident with Exeter and Durham and yet another hand people get enormously worked up about entrance to a RG university which is what this whole thread is about and they attract enormous prestige and extra funding and infleucne.

TBH, I'm not sure what your point is Metabilis.

I was asking for evidence that RG graduates have the edge over graduates from other universities (many of which are also considered extremely good like York and Durham). I thought you were trying to provide evidence of this 'edge' but you weren't so I've apologised. Maybe I'm being really thick here but I'm not quite sure why you mentioned Exeter at all.

Ah, you were responding to someone else. Ok. A misunderstanding then. For which I have apologised.

well actually fivecandles, despite my numerous, massive errors, you rather make my point in your last sentence. RG universities attract funding, influence and are prestigious. Until the utopia within the world of higher education actually comes into effect (and actually, despite what you may think, I actually AGREE with you), why in the meantime should rich children only enjoy the benefits of RG educations?

Coming at the issue from another angle, did you all seen this when it came out, 'Just five schools in England sent more pupils to Oxford and Cambridge over three years than nearly 2,000 others combined, researchers have found.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14069516

This is one reason why I think the whole thing about Knowsley is just the tip of the iceberg and question how useful it is just to tinker round the edges.

'why in the meantime should rich children only enjoy the benefits of RG educations?'

I totally agree.

Like you, I think it is a real problem that so few working class kids get into RG universities. Like you, it makes me really angry.

But my point is that while we have an elitist system it will always be the case that there will be lots of rejections and exclusions (largely along class lines) and lots of anger.

Where we probably differ is that I don't see how letting a few more poor kids in (which is all it will ever be given that we're only talking about 20 universities) is going to make much difference on the grand scale of things.

And I also think there are bigger problems in education and in terms of social mobility in this country which both cause and reflect the inequalities in HE.

@thebest only 2% of kids from Knowsley going to an Rg uni last year != only rich kids go to RG unis.

It's not that I'm against trying to get more poor kids in either but I just don't think that's the answer to the inequalities demonstrated by the figures of Oxbridge and RG entrants.

'Coming at the issue from another angle.'

You mean the issue in the actual op?

Just had a look at the Universities offering medicine. To be absolutely fair, there aren't many that aren't RG. I think my mistake hardly warrented the lambasting I got from you fivecandles

It'll make a hell of a difference for those 'few' poor kids who do get into RG unis fivecandles.