Not one pupil in Knowsley went to Oxbridge last year and only 2% went to RG universities.

[thebestisyettocome]

In adjoining areas, Sefton and Halton, admission to Oxbridge was also 0%.

I'm really angry about this. No wonder people who can afford to send their children to private school.

'You took that mistake and ran with it to discredit everything I subsequently said'

That's not true. I have to say again, where is your evidence?

I'm interesting in a debate about the issues not in slanging matches. And I'm interested in hard facts rather than assumptions. Let's move on.

Whatever, thebest. Don't know why the OMG though.

I'll move on if you stop shouting at me to show you some 'evidence.'

@five you certainly did call me ignorant. But since you've consistently displayed an inability to realise which poster you are quoting or referring to it's actually, on reflection, funny rather than insulting.

My contribution to the debate is to say that not only poor children suffer but also many many children who parents do not understand why taking Business Studies or Law as an A-level stops their children from making certain choices.

I live in an affluent village and I have seen many parents believe in the school's advice to their children and go with what they believed made their children happy, only to discover too late that not taking Maths wasn't going to get them access to Medicine for example, despite those predicted A*s. I find that a terrible waste of talent. It's not a coincidence that some of the secondaries near me only have 4 children (4!!!!) going to Russell Group, believe me these are not all poor children.

The schools are betraying whole generations of children, poor and not poor, whose parents are not pushy and savvy. I think it's a complete disgrace.

On the argument that going to Russell Group is not the be all and all, I say this. It isn't and I wouldn't mind if my children don't go as long as I feel they have a genuine choice and they have made their choice with their eyes open. It makes my heart bleed when I hear other children who have made mistakes under the advice of the school and then find themselves cut off from the choices they wanted.

'@five you certainly did call me ignorant.'

Where?

Viper I think Oxford makes the claim specifically that it is not looking for all-roundedness now (which of course doesn't mean that its students aren't all-rounders; but that's apparently incidental to their potential academically). Your DBs' school may well have claimed Oxford was snobbish in its decision making but that doesn't mean that it was. I've heard a number of expensively educated young people recently claim that some of the top universities are 'anti-public school' when they've been rejected. That doesn't mean they are.

fivecandles anyone who knows anything about FE knows that RG is not a useful term to use to the exclusion of other very good institutions. I advised my eldest three that Durham was a good choice when each made it and the whole RG idea never entered anyone's brain. Universities stand or fall on their own individual merit. Except possibly on MN.

orange the Maths thing for Medicine is wrong. DS1 has an offer for Medicine without Maths at AS or A2. He gor three offers out of four actually - Maths isn't key, only Chemistry.

orange, I do appreciate what you're saying and I'm sure there are some schools/teachers/ careers advisers giving poor advice but I do wonder whether the sort of student who lacks the initiative to do a basic Google search or have a look at the entrance requirements of a couple of universities should be thinking about doing Medicine. This takes about 20 seconds. What would they do if faced with a tricky diagnosis? There has never been more information more readily available for students and I do think there is an increasing culture of expecting everything to be handed to students on a plate which is not the best preparation for the real world. I've heard about universities dealing with students who are so ill-equipped for independent living and thinking that they have their parents attending lectures to take notes for them and phoning to ask for additional support.

Not understanding the unwritten rules is one thing but I can't see what the excuse would be for not looking up the basic entry requirements to get on a degree course.

Yellowtip, totally agree with the point you addressed to me. I didn't go to a RG university and I don't regret my choice one jot. I'd like my kids to do an appropriate choice at a good university but the whole RG thing is irrelevant.

fivecandles: in turn I totally agree that students should be expected to do a good trawl of the websites to check out things for themselves. I didn't do a thing for DS in terms of looking at basic requirements. He found it was fine to drop Maths, then looked closely at each of the university websites that he was interested in and narrowed choices down according to his own list of priorities. There's very little excuse for anyone not up to doing this basic task. The three older DC did the same for their subjects. They each only went to went to one Open Day each. This doesn't have to be an expensive business; the students just have to put in a little time. That said, I do strongly believe that each school has a duty to put in post a highly knowledgeable Ho6, genuinely aspirational for all the students in his care, able to advise them accurately right across the range. I think the school has a higher duty than the parents on this one, so I don't entirely agree that those with the 'pushiest' parents are unfairly enabled.

Schools must not mislead. May be the maths comment was about GCSE which of course anyone going anywhere decent must have along with the usual core GCSEs most of us know but some schools do not always push children to take.

My older children all picked where they would go themselves and did their own research. I think one went to an open day. I am not saying children shouldn't go to open days (ideally alone without mummy and daddy muscling in at all) but it isn't always essential and if they don't have a single weekend free because of studying or more fun things to do they might well not bother which I am sure was the reason most of mine just relied on other information and not a visit.

We might say if a child is too thick to do a google search given how many children do proper searches, get good gradfes and work hard let us not fall over backwards to help those who do not check things off and if they fall let them fall on their own sword as there are plenty of other very good candidates who can wield a mouse and look things up who aremore deserving.

[That is not to say we should not ensure all sixth formers are told basic facts about what A levels are needed, what are good GCSEs and where you need to go to uniersity for certain opportunities]

So to all the posters above, are you inferring that the reason that school (state comprehensive) A gets only 3 or 4 children per year to a Russell Group and school B (also state comprehensive) gets 100+ (I am citing from my own local area) is entirely to do with their cohort of children being lazy, complacent and unable to research?

People are "bigging up" Exeter a bit too much on this thread. It's the back up choice for many at better schools and traditioally you go there if you're posh but a bit thick. I still don't think it's got beyond that reputation although obviously it's better than an ex poly.

orangeberries, I think such a marked discrepancy between schools with a similar cohort would be unlikely. Have you looked up the actual figures on the spreadsheet in the link from the OP? Numbers of students going to RG universities is likely to be in correlation with exam results and issues like whether the school selects covertly or overtly.

In some ways it's flattering that people imagine teachers and schools can have so much influence on kids and their aspirations/destinations. My experience tells me it's much more to do with family/peer aspirations.

OP Correct me if I am wrong but uni admissions are down nationally, or at least so it was reported n the news this week. I do find your post shocking though, for a whole local authority that is extraordinary!
I think it has alot to do with most students being put off by the high fee's. Alot of universities have also closed departments all together due to reduced funding, which in turn would affect admission rates. For example our local university has closed a department where 150 students per year are admitted.
I do agree with some posts that there has always been an element of elitism to university entry. With the current government I expect more of the same as they traditionally cream off the exceptionally bright.

orange, it's a really interesting question. My catchment school got just 3 people to RG (0 oxbridge), and the next nearest 4 to RG (0 oxbridge). Neither have great reputations but it's not a deprived area by any stretch of the imagination. 10 miles up the road the well regarded (and admittedly larger) comprehensive got 5 to oxbridge and over 30 to RG. It's always done well, has a formidable head and it's hard to see why there's such a difference.

@xenia The idea of me 'bigging up' Exeter is laughable. I have spent most of my long marriage slagging it off to wind up DH. Nevertheless like it or not (And I don't like it, particularly) it is the best place to do an accountancy degree. This is something I know about, because of my job, and you don't, because you don't do my job. :) I only mentioned it because another poster specifically said that the big accounting firms would prefer RG degrees and until next year Exeter isn't RG. In fact, York also has a better rep with the big firms than most of the RG. As does Durham.

fivecandles as a teacher yourself I hope that you're just being modest. Teachers of the right calibre can have a huge, life changing influence. Of course they can. They've always have been capable of transforming lives. Many would attest to that.

Just wanted to correct a very minor bit of misinformation up thread. A poster wrote about how getting into an Ivy League Graduate school was easier than an Ivy League graduate school and mentioned Obama as a person who slipped in this way. First, not necessarily true about easier at graduate school - certainly not in the case of Harvard Law school, and second, Obama also attended an Ivy League undergraduate school (Columbia).

As you were....

Certainly in the UK all kinds of riff raff manage to get Oxbridge on their CV or somewhere decent for their MA who could never have got in their for their first degree so it's wise to look at the first degree place and A level results too.
Well I do not know accountancy but I thought accountancy firms preferred you did not read accountancy at university ( a bit like law firms prefer yo unot to do law A level) so if you want to be an accountant get your first degree at Oxbridge etc and then proceed from there. Fiona Shackleton got a 3rd in law from Exeter and did not do too badly - over time of course it's how you do in work that counts more.

(Agree over Durham etc and RG not being the sole list. In fact if people feel they do not have much good information and are in an area in the North in a state school where no one goes anywhere very good it coulddo them no harm to look at the destinations of leavers and subjects of children fro a top 20 state or private school for guidance and indeed look at what A levels those children did too)

Xenia plenty of the indigenous peoples of the NE go to Durham. Durham actively seeks them out. You seem a bit down on your roots.

Also a) why on earth would a clever student go through the circuitous route of googling a school website when any university website is likely to answer most points. And b) do schools really list the A Levels taken along with a particular student's destination? Isn't that unusual in the extreme? I'm sure you don't believe half of the things you say - you just like to harry the North.

@Xenia As I said it's a bit of a debate in the profession at the moment. I don't want to out myself so I won't say any more about that.

Regarding Riff Raff at Cambridge - yep, the Rocky Horror Picture Show was very popular while I was there. If you really wanted to you could probably see it at film soc showings at least twice a week every week of term. And Riff was a very popular character to go as.

Haven't had chance to read all thread yet, so apologies if it has moved on!

I just wanted to add to the outside the borough theme. I do know that there is very little 6th form type education in Halton and many children do indeed do their A levels elsewhere, such as Northwich or Warrington.

Will come back and read thread later

I too dont have enough time to read this thread but really wanted to comment we live in the north west too (oldham) ds1 went to a catholic 6th form in hulme where he was told by his tutor no way would he get in at manchester university,his exam results from school (mostly bs 2 cs ) were not good enough ds was quite dejected ....i didnt go to uni,hardly anyone i know did,however ignorance in our favour we set about looking at our options.

long story short we used our initiative(and advice from here) and ds is now studying at manchester university where he is vvv aware of the gulf between RG and non RG.

I think its a mix of parents not understanding how it works and students not being encouraged to aim a little higher.