Not one pupil in Knowsley went to Oxbridge last year and only 2% went to RG universities.

[thebestisyettocome]

In adjoining areas, Sefton and Halton, admission to Oxbridge was also 0%.

I'm really angry about this. No wonder people who can afford to send their children to private school.

But you're closing the gap with Manchester and York, to skew the argument about the value of a university education at more extreme ends of the spectrum. York has joined RG now in any event.

Cross post. Quite.

'The employment percentages really don't tell you much on their own. For example often the 'new' universities have a higher percentage of mature and part-time students who are more likely to have a job afterwards either because they already have one, or have significant work experience'

Well what IS meant by 'the edge' provided by RG universities then? If you're saying, for example, that you're more likely to get a job after graduating if you have work experience then why is this thread not about the advantages and disadvantages of work experience or how hard it is to get it? Or by an 'edge' is it not just employment that is meant but income?

What it comes down to is all sorts of intangible factors which all seem ultimately to boil down to prestige over merit.

People want their kids to go to Oxbridge or RG universities because of prestige.

They rant and rave when these universities exclude the majority of kids but fail to understand that this is their intention and this is what gives them the prestige which is, in turn, why they are so popular.

I don't really follow your logic fivecandles. One the one hand you complain that there isn't a level playing field because the RG universities are considered 'better', but you seem to be suggesting with the employment figures you quote that the playing field is actually pretty level after all.

If there is really no 'edge' for RG graduates, why do you care about students being 'excluded' from them? You can't have it both ways?

thebest, I asked YOU and ohter posters some posts back for evidence that a graduate from Manchester University has 'the edge' over a graduate from York university which is what has been asserted.

It's actually ME that's still waiting for someone to back that up.

Graduate employment from Edge Hill is 93.6% over Manchester at 91.5%.

What do you mean by 'better'. For many students 'better' means they can stay at home and get a job afterwards in which case Edge Hill may well be 'better' for them.

You have to go to Oxbridge or a RG to become a doctor or dentist. If you want to study law in today's climate you'd stand a much better chance of a training contract/pupillge if you are Oxbridge/RG. You only have to go through the profiles of some chambers/major law firms to see the 'bias.'
Wanting poor kids to have a shot at that doesn't make me pushy or a snob as you so delightfully put it.

@thebest As far as accountancy firms go a graduate from Exeter would definitely have the edge over a graduate from most universities. FWIW.

I'm not the one complaining that there isn't a level playing field (although I wish there were). If you read back, you'll see that's not me.

I'm saying that people who like the fact that there ISN'T a playing field and extol the virtues of Oxbridge, RG universities and getting into them, cannot complain that it's a crying shame that more kids (including kids from more diverse backgrounds) are not getting into them. It's those people who can't have it both ways.

Same with the grammar school fans. You can't say it's great to have a divisive, selective and hierarchical system and then complain that some people are on the wrong side of that divide.

'You have to go to Oxbridge or a RG to become a doctor or dentist'

That's not true at all. Good God, you see what I mean about the assumptions about RG universities? My cousin is a very successful doctor who graduated from Leicester university.

ok. Don't know much about accountancy although I know a few and none went to Exeter.

But Metabilis Exeter is NOT yet a Russell Group university.

So much ignorance on this thread.

'Good God'

i've said throughout this thread I am not an expert. Leicester probably does have a great medical dept but none of the new unis (as far as I knw do).

So, Metabilis, in fact you're saying that there is no edge to graduating from a RG university.

In fact, you don't even seem to know which are RG universities and which aren't

I prefer to call my ignorance 'lack of knowlege' fivecandles. it's less upsetting.

'Leicester probably does have a great medical dept but none of the new unis (as far as I knw do).

Then you don't really know very much do you?

You are getting really personal now fivecandles. You really should tone it down a little. I am not an EXPERT. Stop being so offensive.

Oh I see, well obviously you can't have it both ways in that the concept of an 'elite' group of universities is fairly incompatible with everyone getting in.

You can say though that bright students from 'deprived' backgrounds ought to have the same chance as those of similar ability (which many would argue is not the case currently). So not necessarily more 'kids' getting in overall, but a more equal distribution in terms of background. Of course life is not completely fair and equal, and probably never will be, but there are likely to be improvements that can be made, such as better careers advice in schools.

@thebest Well, I know a lot about it. Although I didn't go to Exeter either. But it's considered (by the profession) the best university at which to study accountancy. Whether studying accountancy is actually a Good Thing if you want to become an accountant (well, an ACA) is a completely different issue and in fact a pretty hot topic in some quarters these days.

FWIW Ephiny, my beef is that children from these areas are not getting into top universities. fivecandles is arguing against the concept of prestigious universities.

I don't mean to be offensive, the best, but I do find it troublingly ironic that someone should complain about lack of advice and so on to students and then come out with things that are completely untrue and desperately unhelpful like the notion that you can only do medicine at a RG university or Oxbridge.

If you're not sure, best to check because you can't use complete rubbish to support your arguments.

fivecandles you are actually beginning to score own goals with your insistence on which university is and which isn't RG. Exeter is about to join. Big deal. It won't alter its standing in the community one bit. But the whole RG thing is merely used as a convenient shorthand for Very Good University and it has since 1994 excluded other VGUs such as Durham, so it's a slightly pointless shorthand in any event.

@five Excuse me? I certainly do know what RG universities are, thanks. Exeter was not in the RG when the stats which provoked this thread were compiled.

I am tangentially/sporadically involved in recruitment in the city. So yes, I do know what gives graduates an 'edge'.

FWIW I think that the whole RG thing is a bit of a joke, there are some RG universities I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. But then I would say that as a Cambridge graduate.

@five perhaps you should improve your reading comprehension.The point I was making was that despite what someone who knows nothing about accounting firms said, 'the edge' when applying to them is to be found by attending a uni which is not yet an RG uni.

You perhaps need to check the definition of ignorance. And move away from your glass house.