Is this the truth about independent schools?

[madonmushrooms]

I am thinking of sending my 7yr old DD to an independent school and am starting to look, as I am not happy with her current school.

I came across this today.

Is it right do you think?

www.parentdish.co.uk/teen/why-private-schools-are-better-than-state/

My experience was the opposite. Appalling teaching in private (two different schools) and ranging from very good to excellent in state. Don't assume because it is private it is necessarily better. In short there are excellent and awful schools in both sectors.

DS is at a private school that I don't think teaches very well, fwiw. They are good at pastoral care so it was what he needed at the time, I am looking to move him back to state sector in next 2 yrs so that he will have more opportunities & wider experiences, and hopefully more inspirational teachers & better challenged. Friend (who I'm sure is a great teacher) teaches in a private posh well-respected girls secondary, and friend has NO teaching qualifications. So much for the better qualified claim.

I realise that article is in reply to some other anti-private article, but it obviously glosses over the many flipside negatives of private schooling, too. Like promoting a culture of elitism.

As beingfluffy said. I chose private after I had researched all the possible options avaliable to me. We have one year out of four that to he frank was a disaster on so many levels. You can not make wide sweeping generalisations.

Yes, it is factually, provably and empirically true of all schools, and definitely not one persons opinion.

ragged
I don't understand how anyone can teach in a good school if they are not qualified- presumably she has a degree but no PGCE?

Also- most private schools publsih staff biographies on their website so any parent can see what training and qualifications a teacher has. I blame a parent if they choose a school with non-qualified staff.

Lizcat-why did you not move your DC if it wa s that bad?

I didn't move her as by the time I had given my terms notice the year would have been over and the next teacher is amazing. I also realise that no where is going to be perfect all of the time. Over all the school has been the very best option for my child.

Slight digression but do you need to be a qualified teacher to teach? My friend is a teacher and does it for the convenient hours and long holidays we did our degrees together but she has little interest in the subject it was a means to an end whilst I am passionate about my subject always boring discussing it with my children DH and anyone else that will listen. Those polite enough to put up with me often comment "your a much better teacher than my teacher was/is" "I didn't realise it was so interesting." I have no interest in being a teacher but just trying to say that I'm not convinced that teaching qualifications make you a good teacher. Maybe the independent sector has realised this.

happy gardening what is your subject just out of interest? I agree with you about enthusiasm trumping qualifications by the way!

Independent schools might appoint as teachers people who are well qualified in their subject but don't have a teaching qualification. In my school, such people go on to earn their PGCE part-time whilst they are teaching. One of the best teachers we have did not have a teaching qualification when he joined us (he has since gained it) but his degree coupled with his life experience makes him an inspirational teacher regardless of that bit of paper.

As ragged said in our case the pastoral care was good and they also had long opening hours and a holiday club where they often took them out or found really interesting things to do. There were also more trips, PGL etc which wouldn't have been available at a state school at that age. I thought the teaching was a bit patchy but I didn't realise how bad it was until I gave my child a SATS KS2 math paper at the age of 10 and they got every question wrong! Child now predicted an A/A* at GCSE so it wasn't lack of ability.

I also found that a small class size of 12 (50:50 boy girl) really limited friendships and exacerbated bullying - there were some absolute spoilt brats there tbh whose adoring parents let them do precisely as they pleased. My younger child especially was always lonely until starting at a state school in year 4 when they made loads of friends.

While saying that I know there are some lovely and academic private schools with polite children. You definitely get what you pay for and the main expense is the teachers wages! Don't go for the cheap option!

Geography done as a mature student: we geographers are often rather evangelical about our subject and tend to bore on! My DS's role their eyes whenever I start correcting some misconception especially in the media. Geography is not just about the longest river in the world: I don't actually know which one it is or about coastal processes (yawn) but so much more basically you can turn virtually anything into geography if you want!! As my DH says geography is anything you want it to be! We even looked at the life cycle of a cod; its migration/population density if your wondering! I've never eaten fish fingers again.
I do "teach" extensively at work and sadly have lots of life experience gained primarily in my long term profession and I have also worked in many other fields particularly livestock/farming in an attempt to escape the real job.

Depends on each individual school as to how good they are. One of my family taught in 3 private schools and basically admitted the quality of a lot of the teaching left a lot to be desired.
I know 2 unqualified teachers who taught at very expensive schools and they didn't go on to get teaching qualifications. They were both using it as a stop gap in their career and got the jobs through people they knew.
I used to think private always meant better even though I am not a private education fan but I had my eyes opened.

Its hard to judge quality of teaching one mans teachers is another mans nightmare. IMO the best teacher I've ever had; one of my university lecturers was in the opinion of some of us so good that we choose him and his subject because he was teaching it not because we were interested in what he taught. A man with limited people skills but I can virtually remember to this day every word of his lectures I would love to teach like that. The above mentioned friend didn't like his style. Her favourite lecturer left me cold, at the end a lecturer I would say "what the hell was that all about?"
I used to ride/compete on my horse extensively and was recommended an instructor; all my friends had done so well in competitions with her. I learnt nothing she never stopped giving out instructions, I eventually found an instructor who said little more than 20 words in a lesson but all very pertinent and I was trying to work it out for myself and just needed the key mistakes pointed out. Friends tried him and hated it "he says nothing I'm not paying for that!"
So its so hard to say the teachers in X school whether it be state/independent are all poor quality.

yes, my friend has several relevant degrees, and much informal experience at crowd control leadership/teaching type positions (like being a Guides helper), but no formal training as a teacher.

I blame a parent if they choose a school with non-qualified staff

Ah, that sounds harsh. What if the staff changes, would you blame parents for not checking up on every single member of staff's qualifications? What about TAs, do you want their CVs too?

DS is at a small private school and, IMO, the poorer teachers are the ones that have been at the school a long time and can't be replaced through loyalty, IYSWIM? There are definitely teachers who are complained about and teachers who are loved, exactly the same as at DD's state school. You can't generalise it.

coconutty I thought we'd try and keep away from state private bashing debate by just talking about good/bad teaching.

I have to agree with Coconutty. How many threads do we need on this subject, inviting the same old "Fight Club" every week, inevitably involving the same posters.

I am a big fan of independent education, I actively choose it for DS. I did my research and made good choices, but that is not to say that every independent school is excellent, or even good.

However, I work in a state school in a deprived area, and am very aware of the positive influence good state education can have on children when it is done properly.

Someone else's opinion in a report or a newspaper should not be influential on a parents decision.

I know in the state sector you can teach for four years without Qualified Teacher Status (QTS). After that you have to do some sort of teacher training- not necessarily a whole PGCE, you can do it alongside every day teaching. I have friends who trained overseas and then in order to continue teaching in England went on to do their QTS alongside their job so that they could stay. I also had a friend who was an instructor (had done a PTLLS course) in an adult education college, but then got a job teaching in a secondary state. She did her QTS alongside everyday teaching. Info is available here. The independent sector has no such rules though and anyone, degree or not, can teach anything.

As for whether or not you can be a good teacher without teaching qualifications, I do think that subject knowledge and a passion for imparting information is very, very important. Of course. But teacher training and the skills covered in the 33 teaching standards laid down by the government are also pretty important. To be a good teacher, I really think you need both. There are loads of great "naturals" in teaching, but the skills aquired when working towards QTS definitely smooth out any metaphorical wrinkles. I would be worried about a teacher who was purposefully avoiding doing their QTS if they were otherwise qualified and able.

At my crammer one of the tutors was a fresh graduate - he was only 3 years older than some of the people he was teaching.
And when he started going out with one of them it caused no hassle at all.
None of my tutors were qualified - most were complete nutters
but they got the results - that was what mattered there.

In schools - I would always rather qualified teachers for the simple reason that part of the training is about classroom management and how to recognise behaviour that masks other problems.

The most important thing in teacher training is class management (and I'm not talking SEN or anything like that) - just simply class management and organisation.

Unqualified teachers are unlikely to have that experience. I know that when I finished a PGCE (and was, effectively 'qualified' as a teacher) I was completely 'unqualified' to manage a class. It took me a few years to learn how to do it!

Classroom management has a major effect on teaching and learning.

"I know that when I finished a PGCE (and was, effectively 'qualified' as a teacher) I was completely 'unqualified' to manage a class. It took me a few years to learn how to do it!"
blamblam* it seems to me that you've just ably demonstrated why you don't need to be a qualified teacher to teach! plenty of graduates learn these skills in their unteaching related jobs.

I think though that when I look at schools I will expect to see qualified teachers. They can't not be , at primary level, surely?

I could understand some schools taking non qualifed teachers if there was a huge shortage of teachers, but when there are enough (I've got friends who struggle to g et a a new teaching job due to the number of applicants) it seems odd they would take someone non qualified over someone who was.

The point of the feature I linked to though was that there are many things aboout a private school that are better, not just this one point about whether the teachers are qualified- in fact that wasn't even mentioned in the PD feature.

To answer the original question - in general the article is a good description of the majority of independent schools. However I dont think the influence of the pupils can be underestimated or understated. Pupils in independent schools are generally very different to those in state schools and the issues of teaching them, and thus the methods ( as well as what makes a good teacher for them) is very different.

Classroom management and discipline are not central to teaching in an independent in my experience. However, lacking good subject skills or good skills in instruction and teaching are important factors. One big factor I found moving from a state school to an independent was that the pupils would eat the work. They were keen, they wanted to learn, there was little disruption
(and I am sorry to say it but being the children of gentlemen and women did not necessarily make the intelligent, many were struggling to be average).

The fact is, the lack of disruption , low level and more hard core makes an enormous difference to what can be taught and learned.

As to the issue of qualified. I think its far more complex that a piece of paper with "QTS" on it. Nor is it an issue of how old and fuddy you think the teachers are (often experience is a key factor in doing well at this job).
In my last state school a whole load of older teachers were replaced on the grounds they didnt sing and dance like the kiddie ones for ofsted and didnt do " fun" lessons but I can tell you the exam results and the discipline took a down turn from the minute they left. It hasnt recovered.

I also think before you ask about " being qualified" - you need to look at what exactly being a wualified teacher really means. In my school we have lost a number of staff (always a worrying sign) in the last year or two ( yes there are reasons and , yes it does mean the school is going downhill I hate to say) . We now have a geography A level taught by a historian ( parents do not know) but she is a qualified teacher! Knows little or nothing about geography....... we have a historian ( another) teaching Philosophy and Ethics but who really wants to teach sociology and psychology ( neither of which she is qualified for in any way) but she is a qualified teacher...... we have a PE teacher teaching maths ( not his subject). I also noticed we have a raft of teachers who are "QTS" and teaching A level who never took A levels themselves. They were late entrants to teaching who took Access courses. They have no O levels ( GCSE) and no A levels and are relatively clueless about teaching at those levels but hey, they are qualified teachers!

Bring back the old days when we had real graduates who taught their own subjects and inspired their pupils. Also bring back pupils who has courtesy and good manners and knew how to behave and even if they could not learn themselves, they could at least allow others to do so - unlike most state schools where the ethos is " I dont want to learn and I am going to make sure you dont learn anything either".
At least that isnt ( yet) part of the independent school scene.

Getting back to the article the OP linked to, I was interested to see her comments about staff meetings and reviews of children's progress in the state sector.

I know for a fact (DH is a Governor) that staff at my children's school have very regular review meetings about each child's progress - the children are monitored to within an inch of their lives and teachers have to be able to account for how much progress each one has made. So the impression given of a cursory staff meeting once a term is a long, long way from reality in our particular case.

Again, it comes down to individual schools.