Is this the truth about independent schools?

[madonmushrooms]

I am thinking of sending my 7yr old DD to an independent school and am starting to look, as I am not happy with her current school.

I came across this today.

Is it right do you think?

www.parentdish.co.uk/teen/why-private-schools-are-better-than-state/

Sorry - should have said - my comments were about a state school.

I agree about teaching your own subject my above mentioned friend (hope she's not reading this) felt she could teach any subject but how can you? If I was teaching I would only want to teach something I really loved and also knew lots about. I have to say this phenomenon of teachers not teaching their subjects is very very common in prep schools!

Teaching subjects you fo not have full grasp of is also common in state schools I am afraid. This "QTS" thing makes it a general case in both schools.

The standard of teaching at the independent school I went to was mostly mediocre (with a few notable exceptions). Academic results were good because 1. It was selective and 2. All parents valued education and so standards and discipline could be enforced.

happygardening' blamblam* it seems to me that you've just ably demonstrated why you don't need to be a qualified teacher to teach! plenty of graduates learn these skills in their unteaching related jobs.'

I had been working in an unrelated job for 15 years before doing my PGCE, and, despite having managed a department, found I had very few skills related to classroom management.

It isn't only about discipline, it's about (for example) knowing how long activities are going to take so that you can differentiate properly; grouping appropriately; level of voice; flexibility; knowing the group's dynamics; timing and pace; knowing what to give teaching assistants to do to maximise the children's learning - and much more....and all that has to go on in every lesson you do.

Good classroom management is so important to a child's learning, and it is a something that many student teachers find challenging.

In the new standards (coming in Sept), only 1 section (of 8) is about teaching: 2012 Standards

hermione, - I went to a state school. I would say the teaching there was abysmal. So mediocre looks good by comparison. I took my DS out of a state school because the teaching was less than optimal. Personally I do wonder how important "good " teaching really is. I suspect consistency is far more important in education.

I think "good" teaching is essential in a large, mixed ability class such as is normal in the state sector. Possibly it is less essential in a small class composed of children from affluent families who uphold the value of education and support the school regarding discipline etc.

I'm very grateful that my children have, so far, only had good teachers in the state sector. Although I must admit that I'm quite glad that DD1 currently only has her form teacher for part of the time, because the specialists who take her for maths and literacy seem much more inspiring.

You can have unqualified teachers (as in no qts) in both state and independent schools. It is not many schools that do, other than for subjects such as sport, music, etc though (even in independent schools despite what is often said, by way of criticism against them) When used in subjects such as sport they are normally well qualified in that field and have experience of teaching in other settings.

And like with most things it depends on the individual school and individual teachers. In both sectors there are good and bad schools and good and bad teachers.

My DD goes to an independent school and we are very happy with it. The teaching would appear to be very good from what we can see. I have also worked in schools for several years as a teacher and TA. Have seen good and bad teaching in the state sector. Have also worked voluntary in DD's school (when gaining some primary experience) and everything I saw and heard was very good.

Anyone who wants to teach in a state-maintained school in England or Wales needs to gain qualified teacher status (QTS). To achieve this award, you need to complete a period of initial teacher training (ITT), which will enable you to meet the professional standards for QTS; a formal set of skills and qualities required to be an effective teacher.

www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/faqs/becoming-a-teacher/qualified-teacher-status.aspx

Thank you MRZ I thought so - but being married to a man who chose not to work in schools after his PGCE was not sure.

there are exceptions such as overseas trained teachers who are allowed to work as unqualified for limited time periods until they achieve QTS in England and Wales

There are exemptions though in state sector. It is possible in secondary, not sure from what year group up though. I have known people to do it, in PE in a state comp. There even used to be an unqualified teacher pay scale, don't think there is now. I am not sure how it works as I have always been qualified.

Just seen link. Things looks like they have changed. Was when I was teaching though, so not that many years ago.

Happy to be corrected though as always thought it was an unusual thing for a state school.

DD's school (independent) uses all qualified teachers, as in QTS, for teaching (it is published information) although some of the speciailists for sport and music do not necessarily hold qts, but they are employed as such and have school teachers present anyway.

The best teachers are those who are passionate about their subject and do their best to communicate it. I had plenty of very able teachers at school who clearly knew their subject inside out. In all my years of education I only ever had one teacher who was inspriational, a few who were good and many who were really mediocre. I was state educated (rough primary followed by grammar).

I think a great head teacher inspires good teaching. Ds's current head is unfortunately very poor indeed and just seems to be counting time until retirement.

The private school I worked at seemed to recruit it's science teachers by their ability to teach rugby, hokey and swimming.

They got good academic results by having good facilities, very organised lesson plans and practicals.
Bright middle class pupils, who behave passably help a lot too.

I could have walked out of my prep room and taught there quite easily, anyone with a science degree could.

Trying to manage a disaffected state school class, who's parents don't value education is totally different.

The crux of it is you have a small class of middle class, well behaved (in the main) kids whose parents are paying for a service for their most treasured possessions (generally). Competition is high IME and everyone expects their darlings to achieve - rapidly.
Compare that to a class at your local state where the % of equally dedicated parents will be (at the risk of getting shot down in flames) - smaller. I don't think the comparisons lie with teachers, acres or extra-curriculars, but with the audience. Some classes will be lucky, some not so. I can think of several instances where we could debate away all of these arguments. There are too many variables to ever come to a conclusion either way. I have taught and been a pupil in a state school and due to my experiences now work like a dog to put my 3 through prep school. They would probably do just as well at our local outstanding, 10 kids per class, village primary.
Who knows?

I don't think that paying for school automatically means parents have an interest in their dcs education. There will be as many who aren't interested in education as there are in state schools.

There is a caveat to that statement which means that it is not correct to state all teachers need to be have qualified teacher status.
What is actually says and means when you get down to it is that in order to be paid as a qualified teacher you need a recognised QTS status . However, payment on the mainscale for unqualified staff can be at the descretion of the head even in state schools.

Obraining QTS is not a product of a suitable ITT necessarily either. Some qualifications ( like my own from many moons back) gain automatic QTS. Others ( very recently for example from the Wolf Report) give qualification to teachers with different qualifications more or less automatically too.

However, I think confidence in a teacher being so "qualified teacher status" is misplaced. One does need to look at whether they are good at wheat they do where they are doing it - and that can only be measured by some scale of whether they are doing what you expect of them.

I agree startail, teaching in an independent school and a state one are very different experiences. Its not just about having able students or parents willing to support the education. In my school we have many students whose parents have left them with us ( boarding) because they are less interested in "supporting" their education in a traditional way ( reading helping with homework etc). They recognise we have the facilities to do this for them.

As for top class facilities being important. I dont really think so. Although its an idea much promulgated that independents have these facilities ( and often they have some show case rooms) much of the teaching takes place in much more pedestrian places. For example I dont have a white board, a computer or any IT facilities in my teaching rooms.I have a chalk board and chalk. Seriously there. I am not alone in that. Other teachers are working in less than adiquate rooms but we all get good results and the kids dont seem to care. Most of them like to get away from computers for a while sometimes.

However, I still think the most important factor you buy in an independent school is the unspeakable - it is educating your child with other children who are of a similar culture ( and I do not man ethnicity here) and away from the school is uncool ethos of much state education. Behaviour is part of this.

Just because there are some crap universities out there doesn't mean that all UK universities are crap. Likewise with independents.

I have a friend whose daughter is at an indie that is ranked about 300. Mine are ranked in top 20. Obviously we both have different views on whether indies deliver in terms of academic results. Where we do agree is that Indies have more money to spend on extra curricula activities.

I don't fly with budget airlines because I like to be able to book my seat. I like food that is not a microwaved bacon sandwich etc etc. Most here probably feel the same way. It doesn't make me/us snobs yet if one opts for private education for similar reasons then one is labelled a snob???

Jeez. These private vs state threads are breeding like rabbits. Can I summarise???

1. Not all private schools are good
2. Not all state schools are less good. Many will be better than their local private alternatives
3. Some qualified teachers in state schools are crap
4. Some qualified teachers in private schools are crap
5. Some unqualified private teachers exist in private. Some of them are there because they are good.
6. Crap private schools will eventually lose pupils, lose money and close. Good private schools will eventually up their fees and become socially elitist. The ones in the middle might be quite nice.
7. Parents who choose private schools based on the naice middle class mix and lovely art work on the walls are considered tossers by most parents, and probably a higher % of teachers. That notwithstanding, it is a truth universally acknowledged that parents of private school children expect their fees to buy a level of discipline, and an intolerance of poor behaviour at a level which they do not in general trust state schools to provide.
8. Anyone who says they wouldn't prefer their kids to be in classes of 15 rather than 30 is probably telling porkies.
9. The very existence of private schools limits the levels of social mobility in the UK and therefore is by definition a bad thing. Ideology and pragmatism are however two separate constructs, therefore people can accept the ideological arguments and still not feel morally corrupt if they decide to send their children to private school. State school parents do of course take first dibs on the moral high ground, however, simply because they are not conflicted.
10. Private school parents do not in general look down on state school parents.
11. Some private school parents choose this route because they are too lazy to commit as much time to their kids' education as state schools and can afford to outsource it.
12. Whilst children can flourish in either setting, statistically universities are over-represented by privately educated children, and this could lead one to conclude that some state children are being let down by dint of perhaps peer pressure, low aspirations and other environmental influences. It is in general probably not due to quality of teaching.
13. A school that works for one child may not work for another.
14. If you cannot afford to send your children to private school without making huge sacrifices, you may do better sending them to state, especially if the child knows this to be the case and feels pressured because of this.
15. Hothousing may, or may not be a bad thing. Some good meta-analysis of research will eventually crop up to give us an answer to this but at the moment we don't know if it is better to be tiger mothers or lounge lizards. Arguing on a thread won't change anyone's minds on this.
16. Lists of 'A' level results will always have a clutch of fee-paying schools at the top. That in itself means that those particular schools will probably squeeze better grades out of your children that the schools lower down the list. Likewise the schools at the very bottom of the list are probably failing schools. These are interesting facts, but only relevant to the debate for a very small number of people.
17. One thing that people could argue in favour of private schools is that politics generally wash over them; it would be a lovely lovely thing if education could be removed from the winds of politics and teachers could be allowed to teach and could be given the bandwidth to do so without continual interference from new initiatives and key stage tortures.
18. It is pretty much agreed to be a travesty that on average two teachers a year are dismissed for capability in the whole of the UK. 2% percent is probably a better target to aim for. Teachers should push their unions for this, because allowing poor teaching to exist does the profession a disservice.

Have I missed anything? Can we simply add to this list other relavent points until we get a full list that we can then re-post ad infinitum? Maybe we could then give such a list (and a SAHM vWOHM list) to all the numpty rookie journos who keep on trying to stoke these things up and get us to do their jobs for them.

StillSquffy I surprisingly agree with much of what you write I am not convinced that parents are "too lazy to commit as much time to their kids education.' In other walks of life we are happy to let professionals manage your child; health care being the most obvious. I am aware that many parents actively participate and take on often very complicated procedures but only having been extensively taught and supervised by experts and then they receive on going help. But when it comes to education parents are frequently expected to provide extensive back up and support with minimal or no assistance from a school. This applies to state and independent ed.
Also it is widely acknowledged that when it comes to parents meeting health care needs of their children they are are generally very good at it and of course conscientious but it can frequently have a detrimental affect on the parent the child and all other members of the family. When I read many comments on MN and listen to other mothers it seems that many parents are being pushed into the role of teacher or at least support teacher and feel ill equipped for it, unsupported and are worrying that it may be affecting the relationship between themselves and their children.
Many people assume that boarding has a detrimental affect on the child parent relationship but speaking from my own experience when you opening line every morning is not "have you done your prep/revision?" but rather "its so lovely to have you home" then the affect of boarding on the child/parent relationship is actually very positive in comparison.
I think we also have to accept that many parents are sufficiently uneducated to not be able to provide this assistance and of course many parents work long hours, juggle other children, their own or anthers member of the families health care need and many other factors so I think its rather judgemental to say parents are too lazy.

'Lazy' is perhaps not the best or most appropriate

choice of word. 'Have insifficient time' is something I come across more. For example, within my own experience, the family in which both parents work 8-7, and in which the children are cared for by the (non-native english speaking) nanny. They are absolutely clear that they pay for private education because it provides teaching, reading rehearsal / prep and extra-curricular activities as a single package. On the other hand, because I have not worked full time since my children were born, we assemble a similar 'package' from lots of different sources - state school, homework and parental support with reading etc, high-level extra-curricular activities in the local community and beyond - because we have time to do the 'legwork' involved in this.

Stillsquiffy - I would like to add to the list: Not all state schools are good. Since you begin with an assertion that not all private schools are good, I think we should present a balanced perspective.