Is this the truth about independent schools?

[madonmushrooms]

I am thinking of sending my 7yr old DD to an independent school and am starting to look, as I am not happy with her current school.

I came across this today.

Is it right do you think?

www.parentdish.co.uk/teen/why-private-schools-are-better-than-state/

You raise some interesting and relevent questions in that post ( the long one) . I may have answers, I certainly have opinions but I asked the question first and would like to hear others answer.

Jabed, I am more than happy to talk about this topic, as would seem to me to be tolerably clear. I just don't know why you keep saying you're rising above and leaving, and then doing neither.

Absolutely. So every child, in every lesson, in every school, should be able to access the learning they need to make their next step to make progress - not to repeat something that they can do already, not to give up because it is too hard, but exactly the next step.

It works for me with broad ability pupils but I dont have a proportion ( or even a couple or three) being disruptive in my classrooms. I think there has to be a point at which one streams by behaviour rather than ability for the same of the majority in the middle.

However, whilst it seems to work for you according to what you sau - why is it state schools are failing them? Why is it so many who can ( and many more who cannot would wish) to put their DC's in independent schools? Clearly they do want to do this (see MNers comments and many other places).

I didnt use the term weeeds or dregs to describe any child. I used weed as a verb. You seem to have read something not said by any poster as far as I recall. In fact the poster you are referring to called children "dross" and said "weed out the dross".

How on earth are you going to keep him away from anyone with emotional difficulties?

That is much easier than you may think. I have managed to spend most of my own life away from such individuals. Whilst I accept they exist in the real world ( one I inhabit) they are not prevelent in my social circle.

Unless I send my DS into a school with such individuals in it, I can happily protect him - at least in his tender years

I just don't know why you keep saying you're rising above and leaving, and then doing neither.

I repeat, I have not said I am leaving. I have only said I will not continue a particular line of discussion. I have not continued that line of discussion.

I would ask again originalsteamingnit - are you uncomfortable that you want me to leave?

Do you mean, am I so uncomfortable that I want you to leave? No, of course not!

Hello everyone

I have been following this thread with alot of interest and am fascinated by this subject.

I personally see the problem as a fundamental lack of respect for elders and in particular people who are figures of authority, like teachers.

At some point between me leaving school and now, that respect has been lost.

When I was at (state) school, I can't remember kids being really badly behaved or rude or abusive to the teachers. I don't really remember there being teaching assistants either. My parents and the parents of my peers seemed to have instilled a respect for learning and those that we could learn from. Yes there were things that went on in the playground between kids who had fallen out, but I don't remember that spilling over into the classroom apart from maybe a couple of occassions. When it did the teachers just seemed to be able to handle it. I can't remember exactly how they did this but they were firm and just seemed to resolve things.

The way I see things now, not in schools necessarily, but in society, is that there is a lack of respect between people that I personally find really depressing as it is just a fundamental breakdown in knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Is this one of the real problems teachers face in schools, whether state or private? I remember when I was at school, if anything was said about me or my sisters that was in anyway negative, my mum and dad would be really unhappy about it. They would see it as us shaming the family. I mean I remember my dad really telling me off as I'd forgotten to return a library book and had to pay a fine. The fact that it had happened, they saw as just awful. Also the fact that I had received a fine was as bad. We, my family and I, were part of the mass eviction of indians in Uganda by Idi Amin, and my family lost their homes, assets, friends and lives and arrived in the UK (thankfully) with £50 on which to survive. So they were and still are very careful with money. They also completely and totally respected the value of getting a good education and they instilled in us that we had to work hard and if we did then the same thing that happened to them wouldn't happen to us.

If we had a bad report at a parents evening then they would have been mortified and whatever the teacher said would have been right and they would have always sided with them. Neither me or my sisters ever tested them on this as it just wouldn't have occurred to us.

So, sorry for my ramble, But I find it SO sad that so many people, including teachers, seem to have lost the respect that they completely and totally deserve. I feel it's the same for other professions too. Doctors for example,
I was in A&E recently with my DD and was so shocked when a disgruntled parent started having a go at the doctors because he'd had to wait. I'm sure many people had been waiting for a lot longer.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I admire all of you teachers and am grateful that we (my family and I) ended up in the UK, and in England in particular. I think for teachers things do need to be better. I think for all people things need to be better. I think until people can have a mutual respect for one another and just treat others how they'd like to be treated themselves, things will probably get worse. I think all of this starts at home and I, as a parent, will do what I can to ensure my kids understand the importance of their teachers and I hope that whoever they have that teaches them have the same level of passion for teaching as some of you do. For what it's worth I find myself agreeing with all of you and am not taking sides with anyone.

Sorry for my waffle and for any typos. This is a fascinating thread.

I agree with some of what you say, mumat39, as I was raised in a different and more traditional country and do sometimes shudder at the lack of respect that children show to adult at times.

However there was also a dark side to the sense of fear that the children used to have of adults, one obvious one being child abuse, which was as rife then as it is now but children were too scared to speak out. I would never want my children to be scared of an adult and I want them to believe that if an adult (even me) has done wrong they can talk about it and they will be listened to.

The other side of this is how to balance uncontrolled behaviour, but I do think a lot of this is lack of love, nurture and proper parenting in the main. There is no straightforward solution to this problem. I would generalise hugely and say that surely having more support in society is the way to go, and this would include more staff, both in hospitals and schools for example. Interesting points you raise though.

Hi yellowhouse.
After I posted my reply I did think I should have mentioned that children shouldn't submit to good behaviour just because they fear their adult carer/teacher or whoever. You are right.

I was born in Uganda but raised here in the UK. I grew up in a very multicultural area and there was a good balance of different cultures. I do think though that the culture of that time, 35 ish years ago was different.

It sometimes seems as if teachers, in state schools in particular, are expected, to parent the children in their class as well as impart knowledge and instill a desire for learning. To my mind, I think when kids get into a classroom, they should know how to behave. They should have some basic manners and basic understanding of how to behave. Someone further up the thread mentioned that some kids arrive in Reception not knowing how to behave and that this behaviour is sorted out by the reception teacher. I am paraphrasing that as this is a long thread and I can't remember who said it.

In one way it's great that the teaching profession have taken on this responsibility and have the time to help these children accquire these basic 'skills'. I don't know how commonplace this is but I do find myself thinking, so what is happening to those children who have come into reception and already know how to behave? Also, teachers, in my mind anyway, are there to teach things that add to what children learn from parents and carer's, not the things that parents and carers should be doing? I don't think this is such a black and white thing of who should teach what, but I can't get my head around some of the things I hear that teachers seem to have to do.

Anyway, I really don't mean to sound judgey or anything like that. As you say, this is a really complex issue.

Apologies for yet another long reply!

Mumat39,

I think you are quoting me, or rather referring back to my post.

We have a substantial minority - usually about a fifth, this year it is up to a quarter - of children who arrive from a minority community with no literate adults. They do not attend pre-school settings, and adult involvement in their early years - in the form of attention, conversation etc - is very minimal. They do have basic needs met, often by older siblings, and are much loved, but essentially run wild for much of the time. Some, for example, have no particular bed of their own, but will sleep wherever they happen to be - anywhere amongst their extended family - when they are tired.

These children do arrive at school not knowing 'conventional' behaviour norms. Our Reception class is unusually highly staffed in order to allow their integration into school at the same time as all our intake (who come from anything from 'classic MN' families to entrenched rural poverty) make progress from their starting points. Excellent qualty learning through play, much of it outside, is key really - putting real effort into making activities available that can be accessed at any level and taken towards any level (so playing 'shop' can involve just 'role playing' or very complicated shopping lists and totalling prices and calculating change) works very well.

As I say, the kind of 'crash course' in behavioural norms tends to bear fruit from around October half term, and from that point on the class runs more 'normally' wiuth formal carpet time etc being introduced for everyone, though still with a much higher than usual staffing ratio.

It's probably easier for us because it is such a large proportion of our intake, so we can make robust staffing plans to deal with it. If it was just one child in an otherwise 'fully MN' class, with a teacher who didn't necessarily have the bank of expertise on how to arrange the class so that every child will learn under those circumstances, it could almost be more disruptive.

It's a bit like the discussion above about every child making progress - a teacher who is used to a class of very homogeneous ability, where a relatively simple 'chalk and talk followed by a single type of independent work' teaching method is entirely appropriate might find it more difficult to suddenly deal with an 'outlier' in terms of ability. However, as I am used to teaching single year classes where the gap between the most and least able on arrival in the class is up to 6 years, and am entirely accustomed to differentiating work and support 5 ways, I don't find it a problem. A child in my class of the ability of the imaginary 'homegeneous' class WILL receive the teaching and work they need to make good progress, exactly as they would if the rest of the class had the same ability. It's just that not everyone in the class will be doing the same thing at the same moment.

Teacher, hello and wow!!!

I did wonder what the circumstances might be so thanks for the explanation. It is truly amazing that as teachers, you have the skills necessary to adapt the learning to meet all the individual needs. I had read that that was part of the early years framework but have often heard that lessons are geared to the 'lowest common denominator' so it's really good to understand how it actually does/should work.

In terms of the kids that you mention, do you find that generally the families are pro-education? Supportive of the school? It sounds like the reception teacher does a great job to get the kids to behave 'normally' in such a short space of time.

Also, I don't know how long you've been teaching, but do you feel that there is an issue with a lack of respect for teachers? Again, some of the things we see played out on tv or reported in the media suggests this. I always like to think that the things that people see and hear via these forms of communications have been 'dramatised' to sell the programmes or stories. But when I hear about things or read some of the comments from Mumsnetters about physical and verbal abuse towards teachers, parents and pupils, I find it hard to understand that kind of behaviour.

Anyway, thanks so much for taking the time to reply to my reply and I hope I didn't 'mis-speak' your words. Apologies if I did.

DD starts full time school in September and I really hope she and DS who will start in a few years time, meet teachers like you during their school life. I still remember the teachers I had all those years ago, with fond memories and can even (still) remember some of the lessons in detail, which is amazing as I often can't remember what I did last week :)

I should say, just for the record that we have decided to send DD to a local private school, for various reasons.

OP, sorry to have taken this thread slightly off topic.

The kids I mention ... hmmm ... the community bring the children to school because we have gained their trust as 'their school', but really they only come to school because otherwise they'd be in trouble with the law..

I haven't experienced the behaviour you describe - but then, we're a small rural school in a 3 tier system (so only up to 9) in a very sleepy corner of the world. I do think that deliberate physical and verbal abuse towards teachers (as opposed to the involuntary striking or calling out we do sometimes experience from very SEN children) tends to be more common in older children.

As an individual teacher, I have also not experienced a lack of respect (this may be because I am known to be scary!), though the media portrayal of teachers as a profession does make me cross, as do ill-informed generalisations about whole groups of teachers (e.g. 'all state school teachers' or 'all private school teachers).

I remember a boy coming in from a war-torn country who would leap around the classroom pretending to fire with a machine gun. Within about two months he was sitting on the carpet with the rest of them. This did not happen by forcing him to sit down and behave, it happened because of the interventions teacher mentioned, interactive, inclusive play based activities. He learned to look at pictures in books, counting etc, but above all, he learned to trust people.

White middle class kids come into school with their own problems as well - fussy eating, attachment / clingy, toileting issues, over-sensitive, competitive.

My own daughter went into school without any problems but learned a lot from helping and understanding her less fortunate peers. In a good inclusive school everyone wins.