Is this the truth about independent schools?

[madonmushrooms]

I am thinking of sending my 7yr old DD to an independent school and am starting to look, as I am not happy with her current school.

I came across this today.

Is it right do you think?

www.parentdish.co.uk/teen/why-private-schools-are-better-than-state/

In addition many of our TA's in my last ( state) did fill in regularly as teachers just as described by hulababy. The rules do allow it.

I am not commenting on how effective they were by the way, just saying it happened.

In my current independent we do not have any TA or HTLA staff teaching. We do though have a couple of teachers ( QTS) who work in student support and operate as TA's . That is what they chose to do.

Hulababy - the unqualified scale still exists. However, there is now a descretion for head Teachers to pay unqualified staff on the mainscale if they want to. So muddier waters than ever.

Acadamies of course can employ who they like as whatever they like just like independent schools. That isnt saying they do. I dont know what they do. I can only speak from my own knowledge of some half a dozen or so schools in one corner of England.

jabed - in my infant school at least 4 of us TAs have QTS, again working as TAs for our own reasons rather than teachers. But we are employed as TAs and supposed to still only do the role as a TA.

(I personally work as a TA - now a HLTA - as it gives me more flexibility and a lower work load (well, sometimes, lol!) than teaching does whilst DD is younger)

Yes Hulababy it exists for overseas trained teachers (who are qualified in their own country) but not in the UK. They can be employed temporarily until they gain QTS here.

The rules in state schools is TAs can supervise classes if a teacher is absent for short periods but can't "teach" ... confused yet?

It is very vague isn't it?
We have had all this out in detail at school in the past few months as there has been many meetings between the head, the governors, HR, LEA, unions and us TAs. Been full on meetings discussing all options.
The distinction between delivery and teach is so vague it is laughable - noone really came us with an aswer tbh.
But the outcome is that TAs can legally be used to cover lessons regularly for things like PPA and whole days (up to 3 days) to cover unplanned absense such as teacher sickness, all at the HT's discretion.
HLTAs would appear to be allowed, legally, to do a teacher's role just with far less money - inc planning, teaching, assessment - and even be involved in parent consultations and reporting.

The unqualified pay scale used to exist for UK people too, not just overseas teachers. Is that now stopped?

It still exists but schools were given a limited time scale to ensure staff met QTS requirements.

Jabed: errr.actually it was YOU who declared "bring back the old days" in your Saturday 14:59 post. Do you suffer from memory loss?

Your style of writing is bizarre. When you say "exams are neigh" are you aware you are conflating examinations with the sounds uttered by horses? as for your extremely long and unweildy gardening analogies, what are you trying to say?

Seriously - you are making this stuff up mate.

donnie - lets get something straight. I am not your "mate". Its a sign of poor manners in yourself. You do yourself no facours trying to invalidate anothers words by suggesting some abraction of memory ( like an old duffer who has lost it?) or speak of anothers style of writing as indicitive of some reason to devalue what they have to say - because you dont agree with it?

If you do not agree, just say so, no need for backhand insults. I havent given any to you.

I suspect you mean my first post regarding the comment about bringing back the old days when teachers were educated properly and there was no proliferation as to who could teach.how they were qualified etc.?

As I said several times, the issue of teachers is a red herring anyway.

I have already said what I am trying to say in a previous post, I am suggesting that the real truth about independents is as I have said several times is that they are socially exclusive. They have an ethos of hard work and competition. They educate as opposed to crowd controlling.

Nothing new in that or even controversial - except to those who do not want to acknowledge that for reasons of their own. I will not even attempt to guess what reasons they might be.

mrz - I know teachers who have been teaching as "unqualifed" for the last 20 years . So bang goes that theory, at least in practice. Good teachers too, so lets not be too hard on them.

Are you sure jabed because the law (not theory) changed ... so if you want to name the schools breaking the law I will happily report them

mrz - Get thee hence to TES if you want to start reporting schools and individuals. I read there that threatening to sort people out in real life is becoming quite common there. Spitefulness This is MN, lets not go that way.

Sufficient said I think?

I will not name schools or teachers who are not observing this. The law has changed several times in the last 20 years. I think there were ways around that particular law at the time and this was to do with the kinds of contracts they were given. I can say that both my friends who fell foul of that law ( as you see it) and their schools are now no longer falling foul of any law as the law changed recently. So it would just be spite if I told you and you "happily" reported them.

I do not like spitefulness.

Personally speaking I dont give a fig what so called qualified status a teacher has . I care more about how well they do their job.

I'm not threatening anyone jabed but surely you don't condone breaking the law!

As I said mrz, I do not think they were breaking any law. I said that I knew teachers who had been teaching for 20 years as "unqualified". It was you who insisted that there was a law and it had been broken. It was you who demanded ( and I think it was a demand as opposed to a friendly enquiry!) that I name the schools so you could report them ( because you believe the law to be broken). I am sure that no law was broken

Thats spitefulness - not just because its making trouble or attempting to do so despite not knowing if the law has (or not) been broken but because you are attempting to get details of personal information from me to use to make reports of both schools and individuals for the purpose of being a troublemaker - and trouble would follow such a happy move as yours in reporting! ( and if that is not a threat to those concerned I dont know what is).

By definition if I give that information, it probably also leaves me vulnerable to being identified in real life. The whole purpose of a site like mumsnet and having names like we have is to avoid such things surely? A place we can speak openly about issues that affect us and our children without having to fear?

I personally have not broken any laws or rules. I am sure though you were asking me to break some form of confidentiality rule there for purposes that might only be described as bullying. I say again, its spitefulness and troublemaking because you are not certain anyone has broken any law in the first place. It could be considered malicious reporting and abuse ( it would be in my personal book anyway).

You are another member of MN who is outing themselves as a not very nice person I am afraid. .

Getting back to the orgininal topic. There is an article in the DM this morning about independent schools and why they are more successfull for their pupils in the lvate schools children are more successful, in the long run in life, precisely because those schools teach on a broader basis more life-skills than the national curriculum based state sector

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2143852/Discussing-social-inequality-schools-just-political-rhetoric-designed-electorate.html#ixzz1urP1QyFhonger term.

Hope that link works.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2143852/Discussing-social-inequality-schools-just-political-rhetoric-designed-electorate.html

Try this instead

The problem is jabed that many teachers in the state sector are obsessed about QTS/graduate profession because this is the only way that they can justify their existence! They can tell me till their blue in the face that you must be a QTS but I and many parents feels that despite this that they are not doing a good job. Over the years I have listened to qualified teachers talk such unmitigated bunk that I find it hard to believe that've even got GCSE's let alone a degree and are QTS! Teachers seems desperate to making their profession into some mystical skill set that only the have. But the continuous rise in home ed. alone and the success of many who are educated at home indicates this. I have to say not my cup of tea but I was talking to a local group recently their results are really impressive and not a teacher amongst them this shows that with the right motivations you don't need to be a QTS to teach children. I suspect the independent sector freed from government intervention has worked this out! Passion about your subject, energy, enthusiasm, a problem solving approach being, being articulate and perhaps most importantly a genuine love of children and a real 100% commitment to providing them with the best possible education are all skills that teachers require none of these are taught on a PGCSE.

Typing error. I get so hot under the collar when I think about teachers!
Meant to say "But the continuous rise in home ed. alone and the success of many who are educated at home indicates that many feel that that QTS is not the only essential to effectively teach children."

Try the DfE jabed
Qualified teacher status (QTS) is the accreditation that enables you to teach in state-maintained and special schools in England and Wales.
Who needs QTS?

Anyone who wants to teach in a state-maintained school in England or Wales needs to gain qualified teacher status (QTS). To achieve this award, you need to complete a period of initial teacher training (ITT), which will enable you to meet the professional standards for QTS; a formal set of skills and qualities required to be an effective teacher.

and

Unqualified Teachers (UQTs)

The legislation that prescribes the 4 year rule is The Education (Specified Work and Registration) (England) Regulations 2003. The relevant paragraph is section 5 of schedule 2.

The same regulations define ?specified work? and who is permitted to carry it out. The general rules that apply are:

? They carry out specified work in order to assist or support the work of a qualified teacher.

? They are subject to the direction of a qualified teacher.

? The Head teacher is satisfied they have necessary skills, expertise and experience required to carry out specified work.

Actually knowing quite a few people who teach the PGCSE and who have got one, I do think that's what they teach. I don't generally consider what teachers are saying to be bunk though.

I think what is annoying though is that whilst I can understand that a modicum of charisma and a passion for ones subject may be enough to make you an effective teacher in a selective school full of motivated pupils, there is often a discourse saying that state schools should 'learn something' from these teachers. I can't see what they could learn other than that life is easier when you pick and choose who you let in the door to be taught!

happygardening - But surely even you must admit that it is VERY different to educate one child than a class of 30 children? Very different skills are required to enable all children to make progress each lesson and to succeed to their own individual potential. It is far easier to educate one or two children at a time, as you have far less differentiation to start with.

Mrz - I am not going to debate this QTS stuff because it is not relevent to the matter in hand here.

However, like with everything there are exemptions and exceptions via statutory instruments and several and various conditions. But as I said, its not relevent to what is being discussed here.

This is about independent schools. QTS is not required in an independent school (its not required in a lot of schools, maintained or otherwise now - if it ever was).

As I said, I am not bothered. I want teachers who can do the job, not ones who waive their qualifications at me. Jobsworths I can get by the dozen. Maybe its the insistance on Jobsworths that makes the state sector as bad as it is ( although personally I think there are other factors there more important) .

I am not going to grace your continued and unmittigating one trick pony with any further replies.

I love how you insult me when you haven't got any other valid response ...

and actually jabed to quote you

jabed Sun 13-May-12 08:15:53

exotic fruits - I am sorry to disillusion dear mums here ( guess mostly mums?) but the fact is there are no rules about the employment of unqualified teachers in state schools.

I hope you are more consistent in your teaching

exotic fruits - I am sorry to disillusion dear mums here ( guess mostly mums?) but the fact is there are no rules about the employment of unqualified teachers in state schools.

There arent - too many exceptions. For anyone who knows the rules they can be worked round quite legally..
Bersides, let me refer you to the Wolf report and the statutory instrument of 2012.