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Education

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Is this the truth about independent schools?

190 replies

madonmushrooms · 04/05/2012 15:49

I am thinking of sending my 7yr old DD to an independent school and am starting to look, as I am not happy with her current school.

I came across this today.

Is it right do you think?

www.parentdish.co.uk/teen/why-private-schools-are-better-than-state/

OP posts:
PooshTun · 12/05/2012 13:40

dido - No I don't think that behavioural problems are confined to inner city schools. No I don't think that pupils being abusive to teachers is acceptable.

I just find it "funny" that your friend seem to think that state schools are sooooo crap that she doesn't want to teach in one full time and yet consider parents who don't want to put their DCs into these crap schools as elitist. In other words, its ok for her not to want to teach at these schools but not ok for parents to not to want to send their DCs there.

'Idealistic' is not the word I would use to describe your friend.

didofido · 12/05/2012 16:54

PooshTun - I did say she was a bit flakey too. She's very young - probably get over it as she gets older. I DO consider it idealist, if misplaced somewhat. She has visited my DD at (indie) school and the devil didn't fly away with her!

freerangeeggs · 12/05/2012 18:50

Jabed: I thought you were going to tell me that I was wrong, and that Japanese schools didn't teach mixed ability. Apparently I was correct, they do - and not only that, but they do so and still manage to achieve very high standards of behaviour and achievement. The truth remains, as you say.

You say your school has just sacked a teacher from the state sector who wasn't good enough. This backs up my statement that the teachers who move from state > private IME are often the ones who weren't able to meet the demands of teaching. I'm not saying that's always the case - but I've seen it happen a disproportionate number of times.

"Teaching in an independent is very demanding and requires good teaching ability." Why did you say this? Shouldn't it be a given? Take out the words 'in an independent' from your statement and I agree completely.

"I have never been so disgusted by a comment from a teacher in my life." Quite a cheek coming from someone who referred to SEN kids as 'weeds' and then tried to justify it by saying "oh but some weeds are nice you know, in the right place..."

Hmm
madonmushrooms · 12/05/2012 19:28

Well, plenty of food for thought here! Some answers that I didn't expect as well.
I agree that there will be good and bad schools in both sectors. I wasn't aware that unqualified teachers could teach so that is something to look into a little. I suppose what the article was saying is that if you are paying, then you have more control and can make your opinions known if you are not happy and the school is more likely to act.

I think I need to read the Ofsted reports for all the schools I am considering and talk to as many parents as I can - I've had mixed opinions so it's a case of trying to sift through the gossip and find out the facts.

OP posts:
jabed · 13/05/2012 07:11

freerangeeggs, if there is one thing I have difficulty toerating ( next to fools) its people who try to twise other peoples comments. I have little time for such things. Its a form of intimidation , goulding and even bullying - a cyber version especially.

So, I will keep this brief.

I did not ever call SEN children "weeds"

I did not equate SEN children with disruptive children ( who I do dislike and feel there is no place for in a classroom with ordinary children)
I did not suggest disruptive behaviour was equated with a particular ( so called) "underprivledged" or identifiable group.
I did not equate any of the above to teaching ability.

I do though suggest a link ( even cause and effect) between behaviour in a classroom where children with behaviour difficulties are included ( as in state schools) and poor learning.

However, I will stand up and say this as a parent. As a father ( even though it is likely to bring more rubbish from some people such as yourself.

I do not want my child educated in a school or a classroom with children who have behaviour problems. I do not feel my DS should have to be subjected to verbal or physical abuse in any way. I believe this in the same was as I do not believe anyone else should be subjected to such abuse.

In our country we have rules ( called laws) which can remove abusive people from society when required (God knows we do not use them enough). As an adult I am free to remove myself from the vicinity of verbal and physical attack. My DS cannot do that in a school or in a classroom. Therefore I believe that children who have emotional and behavioural difficulties do need to be removed for the safety of my DS (I am selfish at the end of the day and want to keep my son safe) and for all others.

So, yes, I do think there is some likeness between children who exhibit behaviour problems in a classroom and weeds who exhibit similar thuggery in the garden - and so, yes, they do need to be dug out and removed (now take a sharp intake of breath).

jabed · 13/05/2012 07:17

Further, freerangeeggs, I did not suggest that those teachers who came into my own school from the state system and then left did so because they had in someway been refugees from those fine institutions and were therefore weak.

I said that the teachers we have employed had been high flyers ( ie considered very good or outstanding) in their state schools. They came to us and could not hack it ( to use a phrase you so enjoy) because they lacked good teaching skills. Something I suspect had been missed because in a state school teaching does not henerally in my opinion and experience have to rise to the standards it does in a good independent. What those outstanding state school teachers were good at was behaviour management ( something largely unnecessary in a good independent).

jabed · 13/05/2012 07:20

I wasn't aware that unqualified teachers could teach so that is something to look into a little

Unqualified teachers are made use of more extensively in state schoiols than in independent ones generally inmy experience.
State schools use a lot of HTLA's and TA's to teach (not qualified). Of course those advocates of ensuing everyone gets the same standard of teaching ( so as not to disadvantage anyone of course!) are giving a false picture ( may I say "as usual" ) given some of the comments in this thread.

Find a decent independent - you know it makes sense really

exoticfruits · 13/05/2012 07:32

HTLAs and TAs are only used to fill in in state schools, they can't do more.

mrz · 13/05/2012 07:33

Really Jabed?

exoticfruits · 13/05/2012 07:37

It makes far more sense to find a decent state school and save your money.

donnie · 13/05/2012 07:50

jabed I have now reread all of your posts and am convinced you are just making this stuff up as you go along.

If you really did work in secondary education you would know that the things you describe just do not happen - at least not in the state sector.

You must be quite bored.

donnie · 13/05/2012 07:53

Anyone who declares "bring back the old days" is dodgy IMO!

jabed · 13/05/2012 08:15

exotic fruits - I am sorry to disillusion dear mums here ( guess mostly mums?) but the fact is there are no rules about the employment of unqualified teachers in state schools. The only caveat is that such teachers should be paid as "unqualified" (and there is a scale).

However, very recent moves are chaging that. I dont know how many unqualified teachers there are in state schools. I dont really know how many are in independents either, I am not sure anyone does or where that information is so you cannot be sure what is going on. I am sure I am not going to the trouble to look it up because I dont think it matters. I think its a red herring here.

jabed · 13/05/2012 08:19

donnie, - not sure what it is you think doesnt happen.

The things I describe happen often in many classrooms across the country. I think you need to get in touch. What doesnt happen too often is that anyone actually admits what happens.

I am slightly bored right now, otherwise I wouldnt have time to post. Most of my classes are revision and exams are neigh so I am doing less work than usual.

Who is declaring "bring back the old days"?

mrz · 13/05/2012 08:34

Qualified teacher status (QTS) is the accreditation that enables you to teach in state-maintained and special schools in England and Wales.

Who needs QTS?

Anyone who wants to teach in a state-maintained school in England or Wales needs to gain qualified teacher status (QTS). To achieve this award, you need to complete a period of initial teacher training (ITT), which will enable you to meet the professional standards for QTS; a formal set of skills and qualities required to be an effective teacher.

www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/faqs/becoming-a-teacher/qualified-teacher-status.aspx

legoballoon · 13/05/2012 08:52

Having just read the article referred to in the OP, the writer's main arguments for preferring to send his kids to an independent school are based on snobbery and personal anecdotes about the state schools he has worked in.

He talks about the "mad dash" of staff out the door at 4pm; clearly this varies from one individual to the next, and as a part timer I don't stay on site after hours as I collect my own kids. However, the majority of my full time colleagues run a raft of after school activities, from DofE to drama, revision classes and sports activities. And even though I leave when I've completed my teaching hours, I put in 45-60mns of preparation & marking for each hour I teach + the time to complete administrative jobs - once my own kids are in bed.

Then the writer says he'd like for his kids not to mix with kids who "punctuate their speech with innit" - reflecting his own class hang ups and lack of tolerance.

He then goes on to assert about the thousands of kids who's future are "blighted" because they're not getting the exam results they should, because of the "thousands" of useless state school teachers. Unsubstantiated teacher bashing. There is a plethora of reasons why some children don't achieve the results they want and need - but to heap the blame on "work-shy" teachers is naive.

Whilst I agree that the staff:student ratios in independent schools are much better - and the main reason why I'd consider sending the DCs to an independent school (if I had the huge income required), to imply that teachers in state schools are not focussed on the needs of the children they teach is just bashing for the sake of it. In all the state schools I've worked in, we have had weekly whole school briefings where pastoral issues have been flagged up, faculty meetings where similar information is shared, and with email, I receive daily information or calls for info for specific individuals. We also have a centralised database which allows for information about students to be shared between staff and the students' parents in real time. As a school, we work together to ensure that children's needs are met, to the very best of our abilities.

On a personal level, I have a first degree, a master's degree, a PGCE, and nearly 10+ years' teaching experience. There is only one teacher in our school (of 50+ PT and FT teaching staff) who is 'unqualified', and she is currently working towards QTS. There is a good mix of newly qualified and experienced teachers in my current school, where ongoing training and performance review is taken very seriously. Our school was classed as 'good' according to OfSTED, is truly non selective, and is in an area which is semi rural. To be honest, not all schools will be able to provide such a good education for the children in their care, but to suggest that that comes down to a culture of laziness amongst the staff is really disingenuous: social and economic factors, funding levels, whether or not the school is in a grammar school area (which means that other schools in the area cannot be non-selective, as the more able students will attend those grammars), are all hugely important factors.

Towards the end of the article, the writer says that the few people he polled as to why they had chosen independent schools both mentioned the "ties" and friendships that their children would form. I think this is often a prime motivator in sending children to paying schools - you pay for your child to enter a network where, on average, children will enter more lucrative professions or simply have wealthier backgrounds. It doesn't mean that state schools are not offering some good teaching and great extra curricular activities to their students though.

jabed · 13/05/2012 08:55

mrz - go and talk to your friends on TES instead of saying such things here - you and I both know, because I have read comments there, including yours, what the truth is. I am not even going to give your views credence by answering them.

I would say to people who might be wondering who is correct here: if it is illegal for unqualified teachers to teach in state schools then why is there a pay scale for them? Remember this pay scale does not apply to independent schools who have their own scales.

Meanwhile , its sunny and dry and I am off to wed the garden. I have a flower bed which has a rather disruptive misbehaving bully in it. The bully is called Aster Michaelmass daisy. Usially considered a rather nice young lady by many , she is a proper little madam in my flower bed and she and her freinds are behaving badly and causing trouble for the other flowers and shrubs. Hence I am going out with a spade and a fork and I will be removing her. But fear not daisy and her friends will either be ( repostted ( so they can be controlled in a pot which will keep them well bound) or they will be put onto a rockery/ bank where they can play and fight with other bully and disruptive plants that have gotten out of control. They take their chances there, its survival of the fittest in the bank garden.

A few a think may have to go on the copost heap to become nutition for the soil. This is a different end to the physically abusive as well as bullying stinging nettles, who I am afraid will be taken off ( with strong gloves ) to the fire and burned. I will spread the ash onto the paths to stop furtherweed growth.

So you see, in the flower bed sometimes even nice flowers need to be moved out to let the others flourish. Ditto children too. Sometimes Daisy has to be moved so that Alice and pierre can get along and have space to learn and grow. ( now in case you are wondering - that is a wicked post on my part!).

Happy gardening to all - or enjoy the sun.
Good day to you all.

jabed · 13/05/2012 08:57

Yeah - wed the garden! My old fat fingers. I am getting rid of DW and marrying again. No, of course I mean weed. Have a nice day all.

mrz · 13/05/2012 08:58

I'm not saying anything jabed I'm quoting the Department for Education.

jabed · 13/05/2012 09:08

Just speaking up for independent schools now. In my experience only
(although the schools i can speak of are what I would call typical), I havent met a single unqualified teacher. Many of the teachers have been more highly qualified academically than thost colleagues I have worked with in state schools but all have had their teaching qualifications. In an independent school you can usually check teaching qualifications on the school web site or in the prospectus. If worried I would suggest anyone do that.

mrz · 13/05/2012 09:13

I'm sure many state teachers could say the same jabed ... I certainly haven't encountered an unqualified teacher either as a teacher or as a parent in the state sector (but that doesn't mean there aren't any out there) and I do personally know a couple who teach in an independent school (but that doesn't mean other independent schools employ unqualified staff)
It's always dangerous to generalise

exoticfruits · 13/05/2012 09:16

I know unqualified teachers in the private sector, I don't know any in the state sector.

Hulababy · 13/05/2012 09:45

exoticfruit - re HLTA/TA only being used to fill - yes, you are right. However reality in many schools is that HLTA/TAs are being used for way more than that. Yes, filling in - but filling in on a very regular basis , often weekly, often teaching (not just supervising/delivering) and very often planning it themselves too. The guidelines surrounding the use of HLTA/TAs in schools are there but it is very easy to interpret in ways the headteacher feels is right for their school. Many schools are using HLTAs/TAs for far more than they ought - but it is legal, although not necessarily recommended.

jabed · 13/05/2012 09:46

Well - this really has to be the last, I know because of the rules that there were several in my last school. This was never official. Three of those unqualified teachers were Overseas trained ( and they are considered unqualified - although I would not call them unqualified myself as they were trained and had teaching qualifications). One was from the USA and two others were from Australia.

I also know we had two other teachers who were trained and qualified in the FE sector and they too are considered unqualified (sorry were because now FE teachers are qualified to teach in secondary school as the rules were changed in April to recognise FE trained as being qualified ( ie the same as QTS) ) .

I also know because I found out, that we had two HTLA's who were working as teachers. One was the SEN co ordinator and she ran the SEN section of the school ( a very large dept) . She didnt have a degree, let alone a teaching qualification. The other was a media studies teacher teaching A level and B. tech. Not a lot of parents ( if any) knew that.

Just as a balance, I did in 2000 know a teacher in an independent school who was an FE teacher and thus "unqualified". He was a good teacher if I might venture to say it.

So you see it does go on. It goes on in both sectors. Now that has to be the last post for the day. I have my wellies and my overalls on and I am off outside.

Hulababy · 13/05/2012 09:48

Does anyone know if the unqualified teacher pay scale for state schools still exists?
It most certainly did when I was teaching, but no idea if it still does. There were definitely unqualified teachers working in the state sector, inc in both schools I worked at - one top of league, one in special measures - diff counties) when I was teaching in secondary schools (but that is now a few years ago.)