Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

This thread is 200 postings long. Repeat, TWO HUNDRED! Count for yourself how many of the 200 are relevant to the OP's questions and then tell me again about rules, sticking to the point and academic essay. The OP was rebuked for being inappropriate and generally slagged off for what to me was a perfectly good beginning thread. If it's informal chatting you want, then please start another thread; doing it here is showing disrespect to the OP not to mention the way she was being patronised.

No, the OP came on here to research an ACADEMIC ESSAY. She was told that a) her title was badly thought out and b) so poorly expressed it didn't make sense c) a website for parents to discuss issues informally is not the best place to do research for the topic she has chosen.

The informal DISCUSSION on Mumsnet, has since taken off in other directions. And, sorry, I don't see a problem with that.

If you don't like the fact that the thread is long, why make it longer???

And it amazes me that anybody can not see the problem with the OP. As has been said several times, if a student can't get the wording of the essay question to make sense it does not bode well for the rest of the essay. Especially since the OP intends to be a teacher where knowing how to write essays and being able to communicate clearly and accurately are essential.

peteneras I'm not going to trawl back through the thread but I have a hunch that you haven't added a great deal of value yourself in answering Emily's questions directly.

Emily keeps starting threads asking the same question which, to be fair, has been done to death, as lots of posters have advised on her multiple threads.

If it's anecdotes she wants, which presumably it is, then her assignment is not going to have much scientific rigour. And on those rare occasions that she does dain to return to the thread, she's pretty chippy and rude. Perhaps you think there's some nobility in defending an Access student; I might too if there was a scent of merit.

So, as a mere parent on MN, economically downwardly mobile and with four boys as well as four girls, I find the thread has far more value in hearing the opposing views of jabed and a couple of much more sparky teachers about the role they think they play in shaping pupils lives.

'Disrespect'! That's absurd.

The OP had emerged to say a slight typo here and there did not make her any more inferior than any of us which I thoroughly agree. Take a look again at her original post above. I had no problems whatsoever in understanding first time what she wanted to know, forumers' opinions to 3 specific questions which was clear enough. What else did you think she was asking? So, like you said, this is a forum and if you have any opinions just get on with it, like they say in football parlance, play the ball and not the man.

Yes, indeed the OP is a student on an access to Teacher Training course. Note the word, student; if she?s an expert professional teacher at this stage then she?s no need to come round here asking for opinions. How many students do you know who don?t make mistakes?

No, I don?t have problems with long threads, rather it?s the hypocrisy and bullying that I have problems with, as usual.

Yellowstone, you?re right and I note this is not the first time you?ve said this; I have not given any opinion(s) to Emily?s questions because whatever opinions that I hold have already been voiced by many before me so there is no more need for me to make the thread any longer.

It?s not a question of being noble in defending an Access student, the very fact that she is trying to better herself is good enough for me. It is quite obvious many of you here are experienced teachers and I?m amazed how very impatient some of you are to a student who?s trying to learn.

I?m not a teacher by profession but I?ve taught and tutored my own and other kids to great successes. In my experience, not every one learns at the same rate ? for example, I remember there were topics (Maths) that my DD took weeks to finally understand their principles and concepts whilst my DS literally took 10 minutes. Yet both of them won places to more than one highly competitive grammar schools in this area of north London and my 'slow-learner' DD will be graduating next month from a Russell Group uni still aged only 20.

So my point is, let?s have some respects for those who are not as privileged as us, warts and all, instead of writing them off big time.

pete we know nothing of OP. Except that she claims to be an Access student with a ludicrously broad and unoriginal assignment which her tutors have seemingly failed to check. We know that she posts and reposts and is rude and ungracious to those who try to be constructive and help. We know she is not that literate and that she has a misplaced idea that 'opinions' from anonymous strangers on MN will shore up 'research'.

Schools and the pupils in schools need literate teachers, open to ideas, prepared to give beyond the minimum required by their contract and to recognise that they are in a unique position to make a difference to the unformed human beings in their charge.

I'm not a teacher either and would never presume to try and teach my own kids because I know that I couldn't, effectively. But I'm astute enough to see what kids in mainstream schools need and it's not teachers who clock off dead on the last bell (to have a 'rounded' life), nor is it shirty young Access students who lack grace and good grammar as well as imagination.

Good teachers need to be championed; they are the ones who can level class and gender differences on an individual level and to a measureable extent.

Thing is she does not appear to be 'trying to learn', Peteneras, and the criticism she does not seem to want to take on board is not a question of privilege either, or patronisation. Poor spelling and grammar are distracting in a teacher, just as much as poor personal hygiene or a surname that lends itself to ridicule. You can do something about all of those things except the surname.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/1178052-Does-Social-class-and-Gender-affect-attainment-in-schools

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1178046-Does-Social-class-and-Gender-affect-attainment-in-schools

Totally agree yellow and mrz.

Peteneras, would you prefer that nobody challenged the wording of the OP's title and her approach to the essay? It would be far more patronising and unhelpful if people had said, 'Great topic. Well done, you'?

Even my chippiest students accept that it's useful to have feedback on their work and how to improve it.

If the OP has any sense she will have returned to the title she has chosen for her essay and rethought it. She may also have a better sense of the quality of argument, research and expression required for academic work. She will have therefore spared herself the humiliation of submitting a piece of work of such a poor standard to her college tutor.

Not intending to be guilty myself in not contributing to the OP?s questions, but I feel obliged to answer some of the latest postings directed to me.

Yellowstone, I find your view about the OP very biased and bigoted, not to mention utterly contradictory. You began by saying ?we know nothing of the OP? and in almost the same breath you said ?we know she is not that literate and that she has a misplaced idea that ?opinions? from anonymous strangers on MN will shore up ?research?.

Well, I can find absolutely no evidence to support what is in effect your personal opinion of the OP which is nothing more than only a perception. Admittedly, I didn?t realise the OP had started a couple of similar threads some six weeks back and having now read both of them, I?m even more convinced that the charges against her are totally unfounded. If anything, her original post in March was precise and curt; I intend to research "How social class and gender affect attainment in schools, which has the greater influence.

If that isn?t clear enough, it makes me seriously wonder who amongst us here need to go back to school to learn some proper English. I even read of posters asking to define ?social class? for Pete?s sake! Clearly, in my mind some of the respondents are not half as intelligent as the OP, if I may say so. What I gather from the OP?s previous two postings is that she?d shown vigour and commitment by asking and conducting her research not just in one section of MN (Education), but also in another section, (Primary Education) - two different sets of followers, if you see what I mean. We don't know what else she had done in addition to all this, do we?

There is obviously a witch-hunt made against her. Maybe, as I perceive rightly or wrongly, her username indicates that she?s only a teenager and the ?experienced adults? amongst us feel it necessary to put her in her place. In my opinion, it all started very early on when a few misguided smart alecs took it amongst themselves to vilify her by asking her all kinds of unnecessary questions instead of just getting to the point. Soon this created a mass hysteria each wanting their pound of flesh while all the time the OP had said she would be more than happy to send a copy of her work to anyone and all that she?s seeking are just O-P-I-N-I-O-N-S and not ADVICE, thank you very much!

Indeed, I wonder who needs to go back to school.

mathanxiety: "Poor spelling and grammar are distracting in a teacher, just as much as poor personal hygiene or a surname that lends itself to ridicule. You can do something about all of those things except the surname."

Never heard of the term, deed poll before?

Why do you perceive the OP is a teenager from her username?

She didn't in fact get any responses on Primary but didn't return to the thread and the earlier thread on Education ended with Emily ranting just a little opinions as we all know differ and when we ask for other people to express theirs we may not like it but it doesn't mean we should be rude

I don't know why you think it's so strange to ask the OP to explain what she means by social class since that is part of the focus of her essay and since it's an extremely difficult research concept!

And, if she is seeking opinions, I think we can all agree that she's found them. However, most of us also agree that seeking the opinions of various people she has stumbled across on an internet site is not the best approach to writing an academic essay.

pete you're on a loser here.

There's absolutely nothing contradictory about saying that a) we can't be aware of personal detail about OP since this is an internet site (as in she must be a poor underpriviledged person because she is an access student trying to better herself and therefore deserves all possible help). And b) we know that she is not that literate and has a misplaced idea that MN 'opinions' will shore up 'research'.

Disprove a) if you can pete because I bet that you can't. And as far as proof for b) goes pete you only have to look at Emily's post. Execrable grammar and bereft of ideas.

As for 'biased and bigoted', I'm a bleeding heart liberal. Just show me an Access student worth a glance and I'll do whatever small thing I can. Emily on recent performance doesn't come anywhere close.

Just because a person is an access student and immediately s/he is considered a second class citizen, that?s what you seem to be saying, Yellowstone. Well, I beg to differ.

All too often you seem to be jumping into conclusion on various things about the OP with absolutely no basis at all. We do not know, for example, what the OP?s personal circumstances were/are. The very fact that she?s an access student is enough for you to rubbish her off. Hey, let me remind you it took Sir Winston Churchill three attempts just to pass his entrance exams to enter military school but that didn?t stop him from becoming eventually as perhaps last century?s greatest war time leader. Or that The Beatles were rubbished off when they went to Decca Records to present their first recordings.

No, I wouldn't write the OP off as an eventual good teacher just yet.

You keep hyping on her abhorrent grammar and yet, I find not much evidence of this ? I?m not going to penalise anyone who?s made a typo here and there. The OP has written enough albeit in a few rare postings, for me to know she?s not as bad as you and others seem to suggest. You chose to believe what you want to believe and ignore what you want to ignore, e.g. that the OP had already done work in addition to the research that she's now conducting. I?m afraid, in my opinion, all the negative attributes that you levied on the OP are nothing but your own personal opinions which cannot be proven.

Ffbloodys pete.

What incontinent drivel.

Beg all you like. Read her previous thread(s). 'Just because a person is an access student....she is considered a second class citizen'. How on earth do you reach that conclusion? Unreal.

Ffbloodys.

I hadn't been aware that Sir Winston Churchill failed the RCB three times but it was his rhetoric during the War which earned him his fame as a leader, not his military strategy or military derring do. I find your comparison of him and Emily somewhat de trop. Sir Winston also wasn't great in standing up to Stalin in the Warsaw Uprising of August-October 1944. Some feel that tarnishes his role as a leader.

The Beatles rubbished? Outrageous. Emily must have a recording contract at once.

Now come, come Yellowstone stay cool and control your diarrhoea and don?t let it run loose all over this site just because you cannot win an argument with me. Pity I?m not another Emily whom you can put down easily. I said in my previous post that I?ve read all of the OP?s postings and I?ve come to my own conclusions and have my own opinions which you do not like. Tough!

It seems you hadn?t been aware of anything. All you have to do is to Google ?Winston Churchill?. My reference to him is to draw out the similarity that in the beginning Churchill wasn?t thought of as someone who could progress to high places in the military/government simply because he struggled to even pass the military entrance exams. All told, he emerged to hold the highest office in the land and defeated Hitler and quite rightly credited as a great leader. Likewise, the OP was rubbished by you as someone who, in your opinion, is unlikely to go far because of her ?execrable grammar? and is ?bereft of ideas?. How very patronising can one gets?

Similarly, you chose to interpret my reference to The Beatles? Decca Experience in your own twisted way. As you can see, Decca didn?t think too highly of the Fab Four and rejected them because it was thought their work that day did not reflect their true potential. The rest is history.

How many deranged posters can post on a thread?

No idea why you're targeting me in particular anyhow pete, I tried to help at the outset. Next to nothing in your loopy post makes sense. Pretty course though, the last one, yuk.

I didn't learn my history on Google I'm glad to say.

Pete, can you see that there is a big difference between being disrespectful and rude to a particular person and criticising the work that they have or are attempting to produce??

I cover my students' work in red pen in order to point out their mistakes and to give them the opportunity to improve. This does not mean that I am being unkind to them and my criticism of their work has nothing to do with how I feel about them as people.

As a teacher I sometimes think we sometimes tread on eggshells too much which means a great many students:
a) are not aware enough of their own short-comings or as self-critical as they might be

b)don't understand how hard they have to work to achieve good results
c) don't understand how much they could achieve if they worked harder
d) are ill-prepared for the standards, effort and competition which is typical in Higher Education and in the world of work.

If a student's work is poor it is right and proper for everybody that they are told this. That is not making a judgement about them as people.

I think we should acknowledge where students have tried hard but produced poor work but still acknowledge that the work is poor but we must also recognize where work is poor and the effort that has gone into it is inadequate.

In the case of Emily, the latter applies. She has produced a poor title for a piece of academic work which shows little evidence of consideration or reflection such that she's not even taken the time to proof-read it. I don't know why anybody would want to defend poor quality work. It does nobody any favours.

As adults, it is right and proper that we are able to take criticism of our work without being defensive.

This is absolutely vital in academic life and in the world of work.

From Winston Churchill's biography

There is a myth that Churchill was hopeless at school (though like most children he had some lessons he hated: maths and classics... and some he loved: English and history).

After Harrow School, it took Winston 3 attempts to pass his entrance examination to The Royal Military Academy of Sandhurst. There was some concern about the young Churchill's physical robustness

I'm surprised this thread is still going... I contributed right at the beginning. Still, with nothing better to do, having done a couple of hours planning this evening, I've read the whole thing and am outraged at jabed's attitude to teaching. What particularly riles is his assertion that he has taught in some of the most deprived areas of the UK, including a school with "35% Statements" yet that he "doesn't do" SEN. Did you shove kids with SEN out of the room, Jabed? I teach in a fairly deprived rural area right now, but have some very bright kids in top sets (and also in mixed ability KS4 and KS5 option classes) but there are kids with SEN in every single class.

I also think there is some element of fabrication/exaggeration in what you've told us about your career - 15 years teaching in the state sector, yet you seem to have been some kind of wonder-teacher, going around in your cape, bringing up exam results here there and everywhere, avoiding teaching anyone with SEN, getting amazing results and getting it all done before the bell at the end of the day. Bravo!

I'm with Fivecandles on this one.

Get a life evil twins. ( apt name)

So I said what a lot of teachers of my generation think. More than that I know a lot of youngsters who would say after a couple of years " Its just a job" . Many even left.
When I started to teach none of the expectations you harp on about were part of the description.

YES I did kick ESN out of the class . I wasnt alone. Most of those my age did so and it accepted because as one SMT said " they didnt sign up for this"
Back when I started out SEN were in special schoools. It was only with inclusion policies I started to meet many of them.

It always causes contention when someone tells things like they really are doesnt it?

We are so lucky that people like you and fivecandles are around to do all the things we dont. I thank you will all my heart for making my life liveable

Let me be even plainer. I do not want SEN in my ds's classroom either preventing teaching and learning. I speak that as a parent. HORROR!

Now lets get on with living shall we? It takes all sorts.

You can teach the difficult and challenging as you obvioulsy do it better than I. You can have them in class with your children, since you havent a problem with it. I am so lucky that people like you exist eviltwins.

Winston Churchill didnt rise to his position because of ability but because of his birth, lets be honest. He is a classic illustration of how social class offers advantage.