Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

My main worry - over and above class and gender issues - is the calibre of teachers

No word I really don't :) :)

Why not be casual, it was no big deal (I wrote to him and he asked me to tea).

Notamopsa it's all about teachers really.

Looking back over your posts I do think you write very well, WF, and your observations are astute. And I understand your point about point scoring as opposed to offering genuine help. OTOH, I think Emily should see on both threads how distracting spelling and grammar can be if they are the first things that grab the attention. They shouldn't be noticeable. MN is a slice of life in some ways. Not always fair in other words.

'If teachers are not being paid appropriately in any sector '

But where on earth are you getting this bizarre idea from, jabed? Certainly not from anything I've said.

I don't know how much less the teachers in my dcs' school get than teachers in the state sector but I doubt it's a huge amount.

However, they get an additional 2 weeks holiday a year and smaller class sizes and less discipline issues.

They have made the decision that the advantages outweigh any disadvantages so it odd that you should question this.

The notion that they are 'abused' is weird and offensive.

There is plenty of research to suggest that even though it is not unusual for teachers to be paid less in the private sector, the compensatory factors mean that they rate their job satisfaction significantly higher that teachers in the state sector. Your own experience would seem to tally with this.

'If teachers are not being paid appropriately in any sector and it is being demanded that they perform tasks unpaid, then they are being abused ( ie their talents are being badly used or their nature is being taken advantage of.'

Did you not read my posts?

Are you seriously suggesting that asking teachers to do extra curricular work (which is very common in almost every school) is 'abuse'?

If you are serious and you have so little enthusiasm for your job that you are unwilling to do anything that isn't directly paid I think you have seriously chosen the wrong profession and I feel pity for your students and your colleagues.

In 15 years of teaching and consultancy with parents and a dp who are also senior teachers I have never met any other teachers with anything like your attitude and I am thankful for that.

'It means that you are making a personal attack'

Jabed, you have said that teachers at my dcs school are 'abused' and that I am supporting 'abuse'.

I think THIS is a personal attack on me and bizarre to the point of being sinister.

And, sorry, but yes also deranged.

Most especially in the current climate when people are losing jobs and a lot of teachers (so far) are in the enviable position of a good salary, a final salary pension scheme and 13 weeks holiday a year.

Or 15/16 weeks holiday if you work at my dcs' school.

'Abused'? Really????

'teachers in good independent schools will be paid for their after school activities and clubs'

But not at Manchester Grammar or Forest or any other school I've ever visited or heard about. Did you not read my posts?

Especially if you're a PE teacher or teach music or drama.

And it is typical for teachers in state schools too.

I'm now beginning to wonder whether you really are a teacher at all.

What definition of class are you using?

I remember one from my sociology class being based on what your parents do for a living. Another based on income and another based on 'owning' your own home.

I've always favoured the Mitford System myself - U or Non U.

indeed fivecandles.

DD has been at an athletics meet tonight against four other schools (all state). It finished around six thirty so all the games teachers must have been there and couldn't have got home before seven thirty I'd have thought (which I'm not saying is very late, but not the five pm people assume of teachers)

Actually, I'm wondering if games teachers must have a different type of contract to other teachers as they are so often called upon to work outside of hours.

Or do we think it's just a given that they'll do it? If so what would happen if they refused? They couldn't be disciplined I don't think.

'teachers in good independent schools will be paid for their after school activities and clubs'

But not at Manchester Grammar or Forest or any other school I've ever visited or heard about. Did you not read my posts?

Then draw your own conclusions. Sometimes reputations are myths and schools thrive because of the social class of their intake and not the standard of the school or teachers.

However, I wish people would read my posts too. I never said that I am not committed to my job.
I said I do not do after school and holiday revision classes and do will not do them without being paid properly. " A labourer is worthy of his hire" the Bible says. Surely a teacher is too? This is not because I stand heavily on contract.

This is because I believe very strongly (and my teaching skills as reflected in student attainment suggest this to be true) that if schools/ teachers need to use after school lessons and revision classes then questions need to be asked about the teachers/ schools abilities and management.

Any good teacher will be able to complete their course and teach students sufficiently without additional classes. There are more than enough lessons/ hours in a day at school for that without biting into holidays.

So as a parent, if I was told my DS needed to do extra classes after school/ holidays as part of revision, I would seriously question the ability of the teacher and the school. Obviously most others here see the willingness to do those extras as " committment to vocation". I see it as incompetence. I see it as meaning the school either has so many issues with its students behaviour/motivation/committment/ attitude (maybe thats something to do with social class of the intake too?) or teachers are not teaching appropriately or the school is committed to a series of non essential days ( such as activity days) which are not essential and are eating into the time allocated for lessons etc. Now you are entitled to your view. Thats just another way of seeing it.

It does nothing to help the pupils who become over tired anyway. They need the rest more than the teachers, but parents seem to forget that - maybe especially the driven middle class ones who perhaps? (note the question mark).

Actually, I'm wondering if games teachers must have a different type of contract to other teachers as they are so often called upon to work outside of hours.

Or do we think it's just a given that they'll do it? If so what would happen if they refused? They couldn't be disciplined I don't think.

Now you are asking the right questions wordfactory. Thats precisely what I have been saying.

In my own school ( and most I have taught in) teachers are paid within their contract to do these " after school " activities. Its part of their job description and ( in my school at least) they get time off and additional pay for the unsocial hours. If that isnt reue elsewhere, then what happens when those good teachers are asked for more and more and eventually decide they dont want or cannot ( hours in the day) do it.

It seems some posters think that teachers are like monks or nuns and they do their work with total committment to the exclusion of all other life. Maybe some do.

Lawyers in the top firms (and in all firms presumably) don't get extra to do all nighters jabed, their contract just states that they might need to because it's the nature of the work.

Teachers get a reasonable salary, I'd have thought the same would apply.

'Now you are asking the right questions' is very patronising jabed, we aren't your pupils (thank God).

I agree full time teachers are paid well enough. Yes, I would agree that PE teachers ( and others with similar committments) are paid enough for what they do. Its in their contract.

Lawyers are paid well enough for those all nighters too.

I was never arguing about that. My point related to teachers, who are already paid well enough for what they are contracted to do, being asked to do far more in terms of additional out of school classes and revision classes in holidays for which they are not being paid - as has been the case in my experience.

The argument ensued because some claimed that such additional to contract classes were paid for. Then it seems others started to think that all these additional to curriculum classes were of the same ilk and therefore all within contract. Then there was the argument that as teachers are paid well enough anyway, they should ( because its a vocation and it shows committment to that) do those un contracted additional classes and hours for free anyway - and that is right and proper.

Then all got burried in obsfucation. I find other people patronising too but didnt say so.

Is it necessary to make comments about what you think my teaching abilities are from comments made on here? You do not know what I am like as a teacher. Its deeply hurtful to see comments like that just because I wont toe the line opn some point you want to make.

Have I comented that you are a poor parent because you seem to think that your child should be in school so many hours doing so many things? No I havent - nor will I. Its the same thing.

I dont know what you are like as a parent and cannot tell that from your posts. Similarly you cannot know what I am like as a teacher and what I post here has nothing to do with what I teach or how I teach.

I would like to know yellowstone, how you consider it possible to make comment on teaching skills on mumsnet.

What is it a good teeacher is supposed to do and say here?

How do you recognise them in the classroom?

Is it someone who spends all their time working? Is it someone who gets good results?

Maybe that is not what this thread is about but its what its turning into.

I recently removed my DS from a school because I felt that he not thriving. I could blame his teacher who it became aparent didnt know who he was and had confused him with another pupil in the class. This could have had serious consequencies in terms of what she/ the school seemed to want to impliment.

I questioned it. What was going on came to light. I was unhappy but rather than blaming the teacher for being incompetent in not knowing who was in her class, I would be inclined to say she had a number of challenges in that classroom which prevented her from concentrating properly on the needs of all the pupils and in fact stopped her teaching my son or idenifying him properly. I dont blame her as a teacher.

However, I do think that the school was not an appropriate environment for my DS. It didnt fit in with his needs or my expectations. So I have moved him. But I repeat I do not blame his teacher in any way. I cannot tell if she was good or bad or anything else, even from that instance. In fact I do think a lot of the problems in that school were to do with social class and the schools intake.

jabed I certainly don't intend to be hurtful, that's not something I'd do, but I can't honestly see that the post was unjustified given what you've been writing over the past few days. I never care a bit if people don't agree with me but that's not to say I can't express or argue a view.

By the end of July my kids, between them, will have spent 89 academic years at school. I've watched their teachers for the whole of those years and learnt what seems to be effective and what does not. It doesn't make me an educational expert but it does me some insight.

You may be a brilliant teacher in RL but here on MN you don't sound as though you approach your job with much enthusiasm or zeal. And you don't engage with reasonable argument from others, fivecandles for example. Both of those attributes would flag up warning lights for me.

I think the juxtaposition of 'Now you are asking the right questions' with 'That's precisely what I have been saying' is especially telling.

I really wouldn't get offended if I wrote something on MN which suggested I was a crap parent; more likely I'd think you had grounds for making the point.

Deranged.

Are you seriously suggesting that Manchester Grammar, one of the top schools in the country, is not a good school?

And this because they expect their staff to get involved in extra-curricular activities?

Most people would see a range of extra-curricular activities as a GOOD thing.

If you look at the other thread I've started you'll see it's much more typical for teachers to be expected and to want to get involved in extra-curricular activities than not and it is rarely paid (except where there is funding for particular revision sessions for example).

I'm beginning to think you're on a wind up Jabed.

'Actually, I'm wondering if games teachers must have a different type of contract to other teachers as they are so often called upon to work outside of hours.'

Again, this just makes me think you're not a real teacher at all.

My dp is a PE teacher or was for 15 years. Now he's a deputy head. He's worked in 2 London schools, one as a Head of Dept and one in the North West. Obviously given the nature of PE teaching he is used to liaising with other PE teachers from across LEAs from state and private schools at least weekly to organise fixtures etc.

If I told him you thought PE teachers got a different contract with payment for fixtures he would laugh and laugh and laugh.

Likewise, for music and drama teachers.

If you didn't want to run sports fixtures or put on the school play why on earth would you become a PE or drama teacher?

What would you imagine the job might involve??????

It would be a bit like me being suprised that as an English teacher I might have to do a bit of marking now and again.

You really have no idea do you?

'I never said that I am not committed to my job.'

You have just said that you are unwilling to do any part of the job which is not directly paid and suggested that any school who does expect this sort of commitment is 'abusive' which is the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

'Any good teacher will be able to complete their course and teach students sufficiently without additional classes'

So, in your teaching career, you've never encountered students with SEN or students who've had personal problems or sickness or absence or students who've just really struggled in a particular subject?

'In my own school ( and most I have taught in) teachers are paid within their contract to do these " after school " activities. Its part of their job description and ( in my school at least) they get time off and additional pay for the unsocial hours.'

OK, but you need to accept that this is exceptional. Honestly it is. Look at the other thread about extra-curricular activities. Look at job descriptions.

I have NEVER heard of a school that pays overtime full stop even though I know that some schools and LEAs may pay for specific activities.

'If that isnt reue elsewhere, then what happens when those good teachers are asked for more and more and eventually decide they dont want or cannot ( hours in the day) do it.'

I can only come back to the fact that most teachers WANT to contribute to the wider school community. Most teachers do not see their job as purely what happens in their classroom from 9-3pm.

At the moment I'm teaching extra sessions to help students who are re-sitting AS or A2 units. I'm doing this because I care about them and their results and their ability to get into their chosen universities and I care about my results as a HoD. Some of these students were unlucky 1st time around, some had harsh examiners, some weren't ready in terms of their maturity or approach and they need a bit of extra help.

'It seems some posters think that teachers are like monks or nuns and they do their work with total committment to the exclusion of all other life. Maybe some do.'

But it seems that you're the only teacher on here who feels like this.

I work very hard BUT I have a good salary, a final salary pension scheme and 13 weeks holiday a year. I do a job I love. Of course, sometimes I feel stressed and feel like I have too much to do but I do not feel 'abused' or hard done by.