Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

jabed, on Monday you said, 'I may sound crass and insensitive I am aware of that'

And so far this is pretty much the only thing you've said that I agree with.

'A few typing errors doesn?t give you the right to tell me I am asking the wrong question! '

Interesting attitude! Perhaps you could have proof read your question? Sadly it's not just typing errors that mean it doesn't make sense. If you want to be taken seriously as a student and teacher it will help you if you take the time to ensure that you are communicating clearly and accurately.

I have to say when I've taken part in short listing applicants for school positions we immediately discount any with spelling/typing /grammar errors.

Oh c'mon.
The op sisn't applying for a postion and this is the net. We all make errors. It doesn't matter does it?

wordfactory I prefer the sound of our grammar to the grammars in your area then. The more outward looking grammars have outreach programmes in place and are looking at the issue all the time.

I'm unclear how you know so much about the specific challenges teachers at high achieving grammars might face since you chose not to send your DD to a grammar. They may not be issues of social deprivation on the whole but there are plenty of others challenges which they deal with on a daily basis. Does it matter what the quality of challenge is anyhow? Those teachers still show real energy and commitment and I happen to believe they do it against a fairly relentless background of challenge. I see what they do and have seen it for years.

If I was asked to shortlist I'd do exactly the same as mrz.

And if I was asked to interview anyone as rude and uppity as Emily appears to be they'd last about five to ten seconds, no more.

Word, the question of the OP is the basis of an academic essay. If the question she has chosen is neither clear nor accurate it doesn't bode too well for the essay does it?

The spelling and grammar would immediately give me pause. However, the dismissal of a whole thread because some very pertinent and challenging questions were asked and the starting of another that is almost exactly the same and doing the same thing on the new one makes me wonder even more.

When you post a question on a public forum you are going to get all sorts of challenges and questions and probes, especially if the question relates to a subject that has been done to death for years by all sorts of government and academic researchers, and little thought has apparently been put into your question or the scope of the research. When you're engaged in research of any kind you should be able to take on board all sorts of results that may not necessarily jibe with your initial thesis, and show a willingness to sift, think about and examine without impatience the results of your search. You should suppress any temptation to dismiss whatever you don't agree with.

ooh, Jabed, Jabed. I have told you that I have worked in the state sector for 15 years what I haven't told you is that my kids go to an independent school where their teachers earn less than their state counterparts (there was a thread about this a whhile ago and its quite typical in the sectoor) and where they're expected to work additional hours without renumeration.

Fivecandles , you said the above.

I consider that abuse . I am sorry you consider my comment about your attitude to that abuse to be offensive, but it would seem to me that if you know that teachers are not renumerated properly for those activities and you know they are paid less than you are are in the state sector and you send your child to the school, pay the fees and your child participates in the activities run without proper renumeration , then you are by definition condoning that avuse.

( and yet you say that you have always been apid in the state sector but expect that teachers in independent schools should not be paid properly?)

I find your attitude more than bizzaire I am afraid. Its irrational.

I have no more to say to you.

sorry - abuse, paid, amongst others.

Previous school we were graded by race, Eafl, single /dual parent, post code, parent/s occupation, parent/s education level, social housing, income, and benefits. (to me a lot of those things are affected by class, but school reckoned not)

Based on that our children then got a code saying what the ?acceptable minimum educational level? for our children was by 16.

I don't think it was meant to be used to justify low education standards but that's what it was being used for.
We fought over all this, with school insisting they didn?t need to achieve more than those code levels and refusing to set them higher.
To me this system means class can affect education here very directly, and more than gender and I found it very offensive, but I know from school's response that I may be on my own here.

I think that is shocking, Just. Glad it was a previous school.

Jabed, unless you misunderstood my post I am beginning to wonder whether you're slightly deranged.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly.

It is not unusual for teachers in private schools to earn less than their state school equivalents. It's hard to get accurate figures because they operate their own pay scales and because averages mask big discrepancies. So, whereas some schools such as Eton may pay considerably more, some schools, particularly smaller schools may well pay less. I'll find some evidence in a minute.

As for working additional hours without being paid for those, surely you understand that most teachers do at least some of this regardless of whether they work in private schools or state schools? Marking comes under this category as well as preparation as well as one to one work to support students. As I've said I have been paid to do summer schools and coursework catch up days by LEAs rather than individual insitituions as it happens but, like most teachers, I have also done lots and lots of extra-curricular activitiies and work which did not count as part of my directed time and for which therefore I received no additional payment over the years. This has included:

a lunchtime club for ESOL students
a mock trial
theatre trips
a debating society
a reading club
preparing assemblies
a poetry competition
taking students to parliament for a mock debate
countless hours working with small groups or individual students to support them with coursework and revision
etc

In most schools at least some teachers contribute to extra-curricular provision. As a parent, this is one thing that I looked for in a school and I would be concerned if there was no extra curricular provision.

The extra-curricular provision of private schools is often a particular draw and is quite often superior to that of local state schools so my dcs school has many sports clubs, chess, speech and drama, craft etc etc. There is therefore v often a clear expectation that teachers will contribute to this provision.

This is especially true of PE teachers where to be able to compete nationally they need to give up many evenings and often at least part of their weekends. Again, this is not unusual. I know this because my dcs' school competes in national events for both private schools only and all schools. Obviously there have to be other schools for them to compete against!!!! And all the big names are there.

In fact, though extra curricular activity is also this expectation in many state schools and it was certainly a question asked of me at interview at my current college and at my last 2 jobs somehting along the lines of 'What can you offer to the school community as a whole/ as an enrichment activity to our students?'

I am amazed that you object to being expected to contribute to extra curricular activities but I am absolutely astounded that you consider this to be 'abuse'. Of all the weird and wonderful things I've read on Mumsnet this is possibly the strangest.

I might add that teachers often take pride in their contribution to their schools outside of their own classrooms. For a PE teacher winning a major tournament is a great thing. For me, having my school win a mock trial was great.

So, I have suggested 2 things which might be considered disadvantages to working in the private sector or at least SOME private schools including the one my dcs are fortunate enough to attned. However, there are compensations. It is typical for private schools to have longer holidays. In the case of my dcs' school they get an additional 3 weeks during the year. They generally have smaller class sizes. They generally, as you yourself have pointed out, have pupils with supportive and aspirational parents.

Teachers are capable of making their own mind about where they work based on a whole range of factors and it seems fair to assume that the teachers who have applied to work in a private school and stay there are happy that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. They understand that independent schools operate their own pay scales and it is up to them whether they are happy with the salaries being offered all things considered.

In fact, my dcs' school has a very low staff turnaround. I know some of the teachers there personally and they would find your perception that they are 'abused' bizarre.

So, I can only think that either you have misunderstood my previous posts of that you see teaching purely in terms of financial reward and as going in and doing your job and then leaving and feel put upon if required to do anyhting else. And TBH I'm concerned from other things that you've said that it's the latter. In which case I really think you chose the wrong job.

You also said,

'and yet you say that you have always been apid in the state sector but expect that teachers in independent schools should not be paid properly?)'

which is really very odd as I have never suggested or thought for a second that any teacher should 'not be paid properly' and I certainyl don't know any teachers who fall into this category.

This is interesting

'Among women, pay is lower in the private sector, which we interpret as a compensating differential. For men, there is no significant inter-sectoral difference in pay. However, for both men and women there is evidence of a substantial pay premium for independent school teachers trained in shortage subjects.'

cee.lse.ac.uk/cee%20dps/ceedp94.pdf

From the job description for a vacancy at Manchester Grammar School:

'The School has a deep-seated commitment to co-curricular activities stretching back over many decades. We look for staff who will contribute passion and experience across a wide range of activities, from the intellectual to the sporting and the cultural to the adventurous, whether during lunchtimes, after school, at weekends or on trips in holidays. We particularly need to recruit staff with enthusiasm and some experience in sport. In recruiting we place considerable weight on the co-curricular commitment applicants will make and would urge anyone with a passion in this area to apply. Our website (www.mgs.org) gives some sense of the range of opportunities currently available, although we are always keen to support new ideas should a candidate wish to propose something fresh.'

From the JD for a vacancy at Forest School in Essex under expectations:

'Contribute imaginatively to the co-curricular, extra-curricular and sporting programmes of the School as required by their Head of Department, the Heads of Boys? and Girls? Games or the Heads of the Boys? and Girls? Schools, and be prepared to run or assist with activities beyond lesson times and on Saturdays when required.
?
Attend staff meetings, parents? evenings, Commemoration Day, Inset sessions and similar important functions both in and out of normal School hours, and participate in the main Saturday Open Day for prospective parents and pupils.'

Jabed, I think you probably need to apologise for saying that:

1. Teachers who are asked to contribute to extra-curricular activities are being 'abused'

2. I am 'condoning abuse' by sending my children to a private school where they do the above.

It might also be a good idea to look up the word 'abuse' in a dictionary.

From the OED - Abuse " To make bad use of talents or a persons better nature"

I will not apologise. If teachers are not being paid appropriately in any sector and it is being demanded that they perform tasks unpaid, then they are being abused ( ie their talents are being badly used or their nature is being taken advantage of.

I used the word appropriately.

Whilst you see to think you have the monopoly on some kind of fact with regard to clubs and activities, I will say again , teachers in good independent schools will be paid for their after school activities and clubs . It is part of their contract and they are paid on scales accordingly.

I do not not think you add anything to your post by attempting to discredit anyone by suggesting they are deranged or are unable to understand or by invalidating their experience in favour of your own. It means that you are making a personal attack rather than addressing an issue. For that reason , and because you are the only person here doing this ( its a TES phenomena - and you are a teacher. Strange that TES and it seems teachers do this and are alone in doing it, one of the reasons I came here for information rather than there!).

I think we are far off the topic now and I do not condone personal attacks in this way. Its bitter and twisted. I will not continue further on this point and I would thank you to stop posting in the absense of any response too in an attempot to keep it open and score points ( which is all it seems you are doing now).

My experience is no less valid than yours. My experience is different.

Jabed simply because others don't post in support doesn't necessarily mean that they don't agree. I agree completely with fivecandles and see dedicated teachers putting what she says into practice every day.

The MGS ad. echoes what a lot of the better schools in the state sector would want too (yes, I know MGS is independent, that's not the point).

Redundancy is harsh but your posts do strongly suggest a worrying lack of energy and commitment which headteachers, pupils and parents would all want to see.

I'm a bit surprised too at a seasoned teacher responding in the manner that you have done (intemperate and not hugely articulate a lot of the time).

math I understand your point vis a vis research and being prepared for lots of different answers.

But I'm reminded of my own research for my dissertation on emmergency powers in NI. I thought I was very clever to come up with the parallel narrative of the rioting in Brixton and the causes ( stop and serach etc).

Off I toddeld to Ulster with some very ill -defined questions. Plus I'm dyslexic. And yes, unsuprisingly I had to sift and filter and completely readjust my views and ultimately my dissertation.

But during all those weeks I never once came across anyone who simply dismissed me, as people here have dismissed Emily. People (who let's be honest were living in something akin to a war zone) took time to explain. They patiently steered me to the right questions. No one ever sneered. No one ever tried to score points to show just how much more clever they were than I.

The paper I ended up writing was terrific. It ended up being published in several academic journals (unheard of for a lowly undergrad) and I got a first.

I owe a hell of a lot to all those lovely lovely people who were prepared to try and help.

I guess what I'm saying is that however ill-defined Emily's questions were, many of us understood what she was getting at.

At that point we could either help her redefine the questions, or simply give our opinions based on what we thought she was asking, or ignore.

Those that felt the need to wade in solely to sneer or dismiss must be very mean of spirit I feel (somehting I would rather shoot myself than ever be).

wordfactory before you tell people off why don't you go back to Emily's original thread and see what people wrote there? She wasn't open to constructive suggestion. I think I suggested that before.

I would always give unstintingly of my time in RL to any students who asked for help with a project, just as those people in NI did for you and as lovely Lord Denning did for me. I tried to help Emily at the outset in my own small and clearly ineffective way.

Quite funny the bit about trying to prove cleverness though: MN is appalling for that and your post, I'm afraid, is a case in point. The really clever people I know in RL never feel the need to say how clever they are (often because they're clever enough to know they aren't the cleverest).

I'm not remotely clever.

I know some very clever folk and can't hope to keep up.

I've bumbled along as best I can with dyslexia and a dreadful education pre-university. The dissertation ending up being so good had nothing to do with me and everything to do with the people who helped me.

As I said, my original hypothesis was, frankly, very ill thought out.

It turned out well because of the help I received and because though I am not naturally an academic, I am a great writer/story teller. The two married together, as these things occasionally do.

PMSL though, at your casual mention of Lord Denning. You really do have somehting to prove don't you?