Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

mrz, I may sound crass and insensitive I am aware of that. As I said, people who are on the fringe of the class tend to suffer most.
Of course I do not generally say I am not affected ( although I have just done that!) . To say such a thing would be insensitive to the many who have suffered , so in common with many of "my kind" ( hope you get the drift of that) I say nothing and nod politely. But I have not been substantially affected and optmist I am, I am sure in due course things will improve as they always do.

I could point to some high profile individuals and say for example has "call me" " Dave" Cameron showing signs of cutting back? Or his sidekick Nick Clegg? Or indeed Fred the shred ? How about those people who have just spent a quarter of a million pounds on their dasughters wedding? Or the man who has booked a holiday for himself and his new wife at a resort costing £4000 a night? I dont see austerity biting there in the middle classes do you? There are many on lesser incomes but who are still substantially comfortable. See what I am saying about the solid middle Englander even when they do take the knock, they dont take the fall necessarily?

Thats middle class. Its not the same thing as its sometimes thought of as being. I will say no more now because its not sensitive to make these comments and I know it.

It seems to be a big no go area , along with the advantages of social class in education. Enough said I think.

I'm not privy to what any of those individuals are doing privately and publicly appearances will be maintained by the state ...no?
Personally the recession is having very little impact as I am in the fortunate position of owning my home mortgage free but that isn't to say others aren't feeling the squeeze regardless of wealth. Many people who are extremely wealthy on paper have limited cash available and many who appear wealthy are in fact borrowing on assets ...

jabed, you really are in a bubble aren't you. I'm pleased that neither you, your friends, nor your pupils' parents have been affected by the cuts but most of us have or know people who have and it has affected all classes. You do realize that some private schools have had to close don't you? And the cuts are only just starting to really bite.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article6269530.ece

'Private schools are closing or merging at a rate of one a week as increasing numbers of parents take their children out of fee-paying education because of the recession. '

As I say, your experience is not representative.

To add, I think you'll find that there's actually a lot more pressure on teachers in indepedent schools to put on unpaid extra-curricular study sessions and activities in the state sector. PE teachers are routinely expected to work at weekends for example. Whereas I've always got paid generously for extra-curricular work I've done in the holidays.

and according ISC a third of pupils are now receiving help with fees

In 2011 the number of pupils educated privately fell by 0.2%.

The majority of this decrease fell within prep schools. The number of sixth formers privately eduvcated, actually increased.

Wow, thats a real decrease - 0.2%. I work in senior school. I am aware a number of small proprietorial preps have closed. I am not surprised since money in independent education is probably best spent in senior school as that is where it counts. I also work in sixth form and , yes, numbers in our sixth form are well up. We have contrary to trend ncreased numbers in prep but I will accept thats because of specific circumstances in my area.

I was going to put my own DS through state primarymainly because it was close to home. Right now he will be either home educated or I will send him to prep because the state provision is inadiquate and problematic and DW and self had little idea of this before he started school.

From where I am sitting the person sitting in a bubble fivecandles is yourself. I might accept that we are sitting in different bubles. I really do not see where attempting to one experience to increase your own is valid.
The figures, whilst nominally supporting your suggestion are unfortunately insignificant statistically. I know that is cold comfort for anyone affected.

I cannot see why you seem to have a need to score points or play oneupmanship ( or is that downmanship?) with your comments ..... the hooty " Do you realise " type phrase amongst others. Its not necessary and I do not play.

Speaking as one who works in an independent school, has worked in other independent schools, and who has worked in state schools also, I can tell you fairly categorically that with few exceptions, teachers in independent schools are not required or under pressure to take on extra duties at all. Neither are we expected to work without renumeration for any additional hours. This certainly applies to PE teachers and similar who get time off and money for their additional roles.

In fact extra curricular activities, clubs etc are part of the contract of those who do them (I personally do not) and they are paid increased suppliments as a result. Prep duty once a term is expected but again, most teachers in independent schools do get higher pay scales although that does depend on the school I will accept. Any good school pays well and pays above state school rates. We also get far longer holidays. The terms and conditions are clear before anyone gets a post and you are not forced to work in such schools.

Only house staff are asked to work weekends ( for which they usually get days off in the week) in boarding schools. Similarly, they are contracted for this post and paid accordingly. You choose to apply for those roles. they are not forced. In my present school only one member of the teaching staff is actually house ( boarding ) staff. We have directly employed house mistresses/ masters and matrons for those posts as well as nursing staff in the sans.

In state school it was my experience in three different counties and four schools that you did not get paid for running extra sessions and the pressure to put on those classes etc. was considerable. As was the stress and demands made that pupils will attain certain targets. In my current school we do not use that kind of target setting. Teachers are asked to suggest what pupils are able to achieve and that is set as target. ALIS and ALPS and FFT and all the others are unheard of for most of us. As is the National Curriculum. Of course there are some constraits at GCSE in terms of what has to be taught for the specification but no real pressure to ensure
"targets" are met.

Pressures do exist to get exam results but I found that there was far more stress on this in my last two state schools. Thats the reality of my experience. I am glad you have found working in state school more enjoyable.
Each to their own of course.

' I can tell you fairly categorically that with few exceptions, teachers in independent schools are not required or under pressure to take on extra duties at all. Neither are we expected to work without renumeration for any additional hours. This certainly applies to PE teachers and similar who get time off and money for their additional roles. '

ooh, Jabed, Jabed. I have told you that I have worked in the state sector for 15 years what I haven't told you is that my kids go to an independent school where their teachers earn less than their state counterparts (there was a thread about this a whhile ago and its quite typical in the sectoor) and where they're expected to work additional hours without renumeration.

At least 3 Saturday open mornings for the whole staff (I know this is typical because we visited at least 3 including some very well known and large schools) and the PE Teachers most Saturdays together with whole weekends for netball tournaments for example. In addition there are extensive extra curricular activities during lunchtimes and after school. Dd1 is taking part in 3 this week and dc2 in 2.

YOu will actually find this is typical of most private schools. In fact 'a willingness to participate in extra curricular activiites' is a standard part of the job description and question at interview. YOu might want to look at a few school websites.

Once again, I do think your expereince is very unusual and very far from representative.

Interesting cat fight. My kids' state school teachers clearly see their job as a real vocation when I compare their commitment to Jabed's. Thank God I'm not wasting money at that school.

Yellowstone if I'm not mistaken your childrten attend one of the highest attaining selective state schools in the country.

The teachers there may well be commited, but are hardly at the coal face of state education. They have in fact stepped out of comprehensive education that the vast majority of children in this country have no choice but to attend.

They have commited themeselves to an elete few.

jabed I think there are many places in the country where private schools are not feeling the pinch. London certainly, and anywhere in commuter la-la land.

Though people wish it were not so, most of the high earners in the city earn sufficent that even a decimation of their salary means they can still afford their school fees. Those made reducndant often have healthy slush funds (it would be very poor planning if one didn't, given the figures involved). And many lucky ones also have the comofrt of wealthy families to fall back on.

Indeed, where I live the rolls have increased. DD's school added an extra year seven class following a record number of applicants.

I am not going to answer points here further.

Obviously fivecandles has some special power such that her experience as a parent of a child in an independent school who does not pay the going rates and appears to abuse its staff ( which she condones because she pays and she allows her child to take all those activities the poor bereft teachers do for nothing) has to be the norm, whilst the three I have experience of are an exception.

Similarly yellowstone would have all believe I have no committment because I do not teach in the state sector and am not willing to do extra hours with Easter and twilight revision sessions (maybe thats because I do not need to and experience tells me it doesnt enhance results any). My view is if it cannot be done in term time, given the number of hours children are in school and lessons they have, then something is wrong somewhere.

I do agree that most independent schools run extensive activities, after school clubs, PE sessions and open days and that teachers do turn out for these but it is generally in my experience a paid part of the full time contract they have. They are generally paid more.

I work part time now so I do not do such things. I do still attend parents evening and recruitment evenings for my subject because thats part of my contract (and I am paid).

I did my time in state comprehensives (some bad ones) and I do know and feel for those who work in such places. I also know not everything they do is done willingly. I also know this is something we are not allowed to tell people.

I count myself lucky I work in a good school. I work hard and am committed to making sure my pupils do as well as they can , or better if possible. Obviously that makes me the kind of teacher who is no good, not committed, and whatever other factors folk here express the view they would not like me to teach their children.

Well I guess it takes all sorts. I removed my own DS from school ( he is currently at home because he is under five anyway) because I didnt feel his teachers were ones I wanted to teach him, so I can understand. Whether they are good or bad teachers in terms of infants schools I dont know and I am not going to bad mouth them in that respect. Maybe its a social class thing ( bringing this back to topic). I dont know.

jabed I wouldn't 'have all believe', I'm not in a pulpit proselytizing! It's simply that your attitude as suggested by your post sounds very jobswothy and bordering on the disinterested and that is the polar opposite of the attitude of the teachers at my kids school (I think without exception), which is the only one I have recent and reasonable experience of.

wordfactory if I'm not mistaken you probably wouldn't have vehement political objections to your DC's attending a top selective state either! At our school I would expect the political bent of the majority of teachers to deter them from teaching at a grammar. The interesting thing is that they opt in, not because it's an easier life (less crowd control but far more effort required from them academically), but because they see it as providing opportunities and opening doors and as a proven model of providing first class education. Maybe our school is more socially accessible than some of the London/ Essex schools seem to be if the scary tutoring threads are anything to go by. The hours they put in voluntarily and the effort they put in is pretty humbling. At the coal face? Possibly not. At the cutting edge? Yes.

Interesting that social class and gender at our school doesn't seem to make a huge or significant difference, though that's not based on science, purely from general observation.

jobsworthy.

jabed I wouldn't 'have all believe', I'm not in a pulpit proselytizing! It's simply that your attitude as suggested by your post sounds very jobswothy and bordering on the disinterested and that is the polar opposite of the attitude of the teachers at my kids school (I think without exception), which is the only one I have recent and reasonable experience of

Yellowstone - how do you really know what those teachers who show such committment and enthusasm really think ? Or even what I am really like? You see one facet here. The one which is slightly jaded, mostly because I worked my backside off in state schools for 15 years , getting top results in the school, doing all those hours discussed here for nothing, working my back off at home to give the students, mostly lower ability, enough materials and teaching to enable them to do far better than any predictions would allow. What I got for that was , higher targets which were at the end unreasonable and barely attainable ( my less enthusiastic colleagues though had different targets, ones which I could easily meet but they struggled with) , each time I did more and more, and each time I ended up redundant or having ( in the last instance) to reapply for my post in a re structuring when I was replaced by an NQT because that was cheaper and budgets rule and those results , committment, enthusiasm and everything else didnt count.

I was told then, when I was gitted "Well its only a job jabed, get on with life" The truth is that was hurtful but true. Eventually we all have to retire or leave a post because we are considered ready for the pasture. No one misses you beyond the day after.

So forgive me for now doing what I do and feeling the way I do and appearing "jobsworth"

But I was lucky, as I said, I got a good job in a very good school. I count my blessings on that daily.

I may appear uncommitted to you here but what I havent told you is how many hours I put in writing revision books and worksheets for the students holidays . How much time I put into practicing them for the exams to ensure they can all get grade A B or C ( at A level - not easy, even with motivated students in my school). After doing it so long, I have most of my lessons and resources in place. So I can afford not to be doing, doing, doing.

Then of course there is the "face" you show to parents and pupils. The face we all show the world if you like. Mine is smiling, happy, hard working and enthusiastic to all intents. I bet you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between me and those wonderful committed teachers you set up as role models. You do not know what they may think in private. Having been in many staffrooms in my career, I can have a good guess.

Although I wouldnt want to burst the bubble there. As I said, there are things teachers are not allowed to say publically. Here it is anonymous and all I have done is suggest there is another side to teaching and schools. Part of the job is to look committed and enthusiastic and be positive about the children and to look as if you are in a vocation rather than just a job.

For me , there is some truth in the fact it is a vocation. I have carried on despite being put out to pasture early by the state system. I hope to carry on for many years past retirement age ( when I get there) in my current school.

Goodbye from "Mr Chips"

yellowstone I wouldn't have any objection to my DC attending GS, and indeed DD successfully sat for a place.
We didn't take up the place because we liked a particular independent school much better and because finance is not an issue. If it were I would have no qualms.

But I think we need to be honest here. Independent schools and GS schools are not in the same sphere as some state schools. Yes the results have to be good, but frankly, with motivated, highly intelligent and well supported children, that is hardly the greatest challenge in the world.

Yes the teachers are commited and yes they give of their best, but it is by its very nature an easier task.

Now I have no issue with that. Not every teacher is cut out for, nor wants to work at the coal face. Not every teacher wants to do it for their entire career ( as a child care lawyer, I think working with disadvantaged children has a shelf life. Do it too long and you become tired and jaded).

My issue was with your distinction between the perceived commitment of the teachers at a GS and the commitment of someone who has tried to make a difference in a challenging school. You are not comparing apples with apples. Much easier for the former to be all smiles, much much harder for the later.

I also think we might improve state provision emmensely if we listened to teachers more. It seems that when nurses complain about dirty wards, useless managers, patient violence, we seem to listen. Yet when teachers say they're fed up and have had enough, people are so very quick to point the finger and call them uncommited.

wordfactory with the greatest respect, the fact that your daughter passed the 11+ but chose not to attend the grammar doesn't give you particular insight into the grammar school world. And simply knowing people with kids at grammars doesn't put you on the inside track either. You're a lawyer, you'll know about hearsay.

Of course the challenges are different in different schools, who would dispute that? But the challenges of providing a first-rate education, year on year, against the background of extremely tight funding is a considerable one and the results to which you refer are achieved overwhelmingly because of the dedication of the teachers. Without that dedication and preparedness to go the extra mile, the kids would leave much less rich educationally at the end of Y13. The social profile at our school is not that of an independent; perhaps it's different with grammars in your neck of the woods, though I certainly hope that's not so.

Actually, I understood myself to be making a distinction between Jabed's apparent lassitude at an independent school and the commitment of the teachers at my own childrens state school which happens to be a grammar. I was not comparing either with inner city failing school type commitment. According to your version of what our grammar is like it therefore was an apple:apple comparison.

The very best teachers who truly are committed should of course be listened to as I'm sure they already are.

jabed your last post doesn't make happy reading.

A few typing errors doesn?t give you the right to tell me I am asking the wrong question!

EvilTwins and senua - I have done research already and the reason I posted a question was for OPINION, hence the part in your opinion in brackets.

CrystalChandelier- No I am not muddled at all I wanted opinions off parents or teachers, so that is why I posted it on MUMSNET! I have also sent out some questionnaires to local primary schools for parents and teachers to fill out.

AnnieBesant- No I am not a teacher, maybe you should read the first post again, I?m a currently on an access to teaching course.

ChateauRouge- it?s not about liking or disliking the answers, I asked for opinion and didn?t get any on my topic so therefore they weren?t useful so i deleted it and started another. You obviously have nothing better to do than sit behind a computer and start arguments on topics and you clearly don?t answer and instead but stupid unnecessary comments on them instead.
I re-posted a question as the responses for last time were not very useful.
So why is it you feel the need to put across your negative comments? (They didn?t get you anywhere last time, so why even bother this time).

Thank you to those who actually posted USEFUL comments and they have been taken into account when it comes to my research project.

Emily maybe watch those people skills when you go for any interview at a school.

How does that comment have anything to do with me going into a school. I was simply telling the people who have done nothing but post negative unwanted comment on my post, when all I asked for in the beginning were other people?s opinions for my research project.

Emily !!

Your research project, as you will have gathered from the debate on this thread, is a huge subject, as big as the chicken/egg problem. How did you get clearance to write on such a vast subject?

yellowstone the GS schools in this area are packed to the rafters with middle class children. The rate of FSM is absurdly small. The arte of children attending from care is absurdly small.

The school where I volunteer has never sent any children on to GS. Ever.
These children no matter how bright will never go there.
The teachers at GS will never have to deal with them and their social problems.

Obviously, GS school teachers have the challenge of financial constraints and resource issues, but you will not convince m eI am afraid that it is as challenging as working in a failing innner city school.

'appears to abuse its staff ( which she condones because she pays and she allows her child to take all those activities the poor bereft teachers do for nothing) '

This is not only bizarre it's offensive.

If you honestly believe that organising extra curricular activities is 'abuse' I feel sorry for you. In most schools (state or private) this is normal life and often the fun bit of teaching.

I've really got to question the sort of teacher you with this attitude. I feel sorry for the children you work with and I would like to point out that it is not shared by most teachers who went into teaching because they actually like working with kids.