top grammar vs top private

[darleneconnor]

For argument sake say you had to choose between a top (ie top 20) state grammar and a top private school which would you go for?

Assume no financial constraints and no objections to the principle of private education.

There is no doubt that a private education will open doors in many sections of employment, and will also ease the way to top grades and hence top universities (where there are many averagely bright privately educated studentswho may be very 'confident' but not particularly bright, but that's another discussion)

That doesn't make it right or fair though.

Personally, I wouldn't be particularly proud that my DCs had got into a top job because of their contacts. I would rather they did so on their own merit.

My DCs' 'top' grammar school regularly sends many students to Oxbridge. However, some parents would turn it down for the local private/public schools precisely because they want the contacts/old boy network. I suppose it depends if one is driven by money or not in the long run.

Others remove their DCs because they can't- keep up with the fast pace prefer a litte more one to one teaching.

The facilities at ds' school are fine
On ne mange pas le decor
It's clean, pleasant, fit for purpose and not overcrowded. Also full of lively boys and enthusiastic staff.

Seeker you forgot the daily murders. Those are a real bind.

Feegie - how could I have forgotten? Obviously I have become desensitized to such things. I suppose that happens when you're exposed to such things on a daily basis! Will someone think of the children?

I think that the choice in the OP depends on the type of ambition within a family.

If a family is socially ambitious, it is much more likely to choose a private school. If a family is academically ambitious, some grammar schools are clearly excellent at delivering the goods.

Personally, I am ambitious about broadening my family's horizons and being part of the global élite, and in England only a handful of boarding schools and a handful of inner London day schools would begin to deliver the goods

Look, this is a fictional scenario. As it happens I have both financial and principle issues and would choose the grammar in a heartbeat if in a grammar area, or the local comp which is what I am actually doing, which is fine and where ds will have a good time and work reasonably hard.

OOOOOOOh I agree have thought that for ages

Oh, I'm even more confused now!

This question came from me flicking through the websites of the grammar schools that are at the top of the A level league table. I was really blown over with how impressive their facilities are (swimming pools etc) and how selective they are. I always thoguht grammar= top 20%ish of cohort. I didn't realise there were ones with 10 pupils fighting for each space or who only took the top 1% of the ability range. I started to think that somewhere that academically selective would suit my DS more than the top privates, who I get the impression take a broader ability range than this. (maybe I'm wrong?)

In the long run we could move into one of these grammar areas if I thought that would be for the best. Where we currently live I wouldn't use the state secondaries (if it came down to it I'd give up work and HE). We've been round the privates but they are nothing on the top privates down south. They dont even have the facilities/attainment of the state grammars I've been looking up. (big classes, only 5% oxbridge etc)

I'd basically resigned myself to sending DS away to board (something he and I are happy with) at whatever is the best place that will take him. (The 'money is no issue' comes from the fact that we would need a big bursary no that we are stinking rich!) But the disadvantage with this is that, hopefully in the future our income will rise, but to see that disappear into fees would be quite depressing if we could get just as good an education from a free state grammar. BTW I dont have a problem with the entirety of one of our salaries being swallowed up by fees but if we could save on that to go on the odd holiday or move from our 2 bed flat to a 3 bed house then I think we should consider that option.

Basically, anywhere but Eton is crap and second rate anyway. If you want to be a part of the Social Elite.

BTW many grammar schools have more than ten kids going for each place.

Ah, interesting darleneconnor.

So tell us a bit about your ds?

I'm really surprised at how many people have said private.
I don't really understand the point about universities looking at average grades of the school
My simple brain tells me that when applying to a good university, all things (grades) being equal they would look more favourably on a state school candidate.

Of course when you're talking 'top private' there's a layer which just doesn't exist if you live in the North of England and wouldn't dream of boarding. The Eton and Harrows (etc) are a mystery to me. How does it work, does Lord so-and-so still 'put Fred down for Eton' before he's born, and then Fred gets in even if he's dim? (sorry, off topic but its something that DH and I were puzzling about the other day)

Those seem to be the places needed for real 'contacts' in politics etc.... are most of them still all-boys?

If you send him to an excellent private boarding school and later loose the bursary due to an income rise it will be massively expensive.

Maybe ten thousand a term that you have to have after tax.

Whereabouts do you live, Darlene? I sense you're getting a lot of southern perspective on this thread...

That's a bit of a myth. Usually the universities look at your predicted grades and AS and GCSE results and if they are pretty dire from either school sector you won't get in. It also depends on the subject you apply for too. They have always and continue to consider well a child from a very bad comp where people get CCC who gets AAA and most private parents would be happy with that but they don't go around rejecting private school pupils en masse and opening their arms wide to every state grammar pupil so I don't think at the moment you are disadvantaged at a private school in university entrace and they tend to be much better prepared for Oxbridge and to haev a better overall UCAS form in terms of hobbies and also if you are interviewed do speak better adn do better at the interview for obvious reasons.

What intersets me is how children do later post university seeing my older ones emerge from that and what factors determine it. At the moment for plenty of graduates even get unpaid work experience is tricky.

What about Stonyhurst? Isn't that a highly rated boarding school in Lancashire?

I understand it does work like that Xenia. If not, there'd be no private school kids in good universities which I know is not the case (quite the reverse). However, arguably there is a trend to this type of attitide. As I said, if you are being even-handed (as opposed to 'equal') the state candidate should be the preferred choice.

"At the moment for plenty of graduates even get unpaid work experience is tricky."

This is very true; competition for jobs is really tough right now, and only the graduates with the greatest variety of useful, applicable skills are getting a foot in the door (paid or unpaid). However, anecdotally, it is clear to us that those graduates who are operational in three or more languages (not just bilingual) as well as having a professional skill set (maths, economics, law, art) are doing just fine in the job market.

darlene, I thought that you were talking hypothetically. RL scenario is different.

I have a family member who went to one of those grammers you mentioned -top 1% ability, 10 pupils fighting for each space. Imagine how bright you have to be to get in there. Now imagine how bright you have to be to be Number 8 on that years' acceptance list!! Despite this, said family member spent his whole time hating the school, didn't get spectacular grades, nearly didn't go to Uni and, when he did go, didn't go to a Russell/1994.
I have heard said that grammar teachers can be poor because they don't need to be good, the pupils teach themselves.

You can't generalise. you have to fit the child to the school unless it's something off-the-scale like Eton where they get very personalised learning. or so i'm told. peternas will know.

What about Stonyhurst? Isn't that a highly rated boarding school in Lancashire?

HaHaHa... oh, was that a serious question?

No - it charges way more than any others round here and has about the worst results.

If we'd had to choose between that and the local comp, it would have been the comp every time.

Lovely buildings though

My dd1 is at a top grammar single sex school and I would disagree with what some people have said in regard to facilities and after school activities. There are over 70 different after school/lunch clubs covering all sports, every language you can think of, arts, film club, manga club, religious ones blah blah blah. Xenia may be right about accents, there is a mix and our dd is ribbed for being posh in a friendly way. I like that though, it means that dd1 has a better idea of social mix than when she was in a small primary full of middle class children.

My best friends dd is at a mid range private school academically I'd say the girls were similar, but we've noticed that her dd isn't pushed as much. My dd gets lots more homework and says things like 'I only got a 5a' as if it's the end of the world - she's in year 7. So in our case I'd say it depends on the child, I don't think dd's grammar would be the right school for every child. She says herself that she's not allowed to put a foot out of line, the discipline is very strong - I can imagine this would be a nightmare for some children.

However for dd1 its fab and I feel I can sleep at night knowing she's getting the best education for her. The only thing that keeps me awake is wondering what'll happen when it comes to dd2 and ds.

I'd go and see the schools with your dc and go on instinct.

Taking one in ten pupils does not mean they are taking the top 1% ability.

As it is there are a large number of independent schools that are more selective than grammars. Even the inspection reports state that the cohort is above selective maintained schools.

Harrow takes on many old boys, Eton does not, Winchester and Westminster are filled with the brightest boys in the country. So only one takes Lord Mumbleton-Smythe's dumb offsrping.

Which is why we need to guard against the whole 'I went to a comp and am now head of the bank of England' or 'DH got two CSEs in textiles and brass rubbing and got a place at Christ College.'

The world has radically changed in the last ten years. Competition both within the UK and from global applicants is at an all time high.
Social mobility is at an all time low.

You simply cannot now get certain jobs without a good degree from a good uni and a series of internships, mostly living in London.

We do our DC no favours by pretending it aint so.