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Original poster

Returning large items, refunds, tracking etc. Help

181 replies

JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 11:59

I bought a sofa on ebay, from a business seller. This means apparently that they have to accept returns - and it says on the listing, returns must be requested within 7 days, delivery charges non refundable etc etc. (I know this doesn't mean they have to but I think under the consumer act they do).

Sofa is hideous, well parts of it are - described as high quality but on a lot of it they have used the cheapest, thinnest leather possible that looks and feels like plastic. It's horrid.

I rang the shop and asked to return it. They were funny about it but said yes, Tuesday. It arrived yesterday btw. they said the packaging is gone, so it is a problem, but I looked this up on the consumer website thingy and it said they can't refuse because of packaging and they took it with them anyway. So I think I'm ok there.

Problem is I paid with paypal, and I can't get tracking for the return, because the shop is collecting it themselves in their van. I'm worried they won't refund or will keep too much of my original payment.

I rang paypal who were useless and said that without online tracking they couldn't do anything. I said well, they don't have tracking for the delivery either, so can't I say I haven't received it, once they've taken it away?
They said no, as they know I've received it because I've told them Hmm

I'm not sure what to do. What if they pick it up, then refuse to refund - can I then open a claim? I don't know what the answer is and am really worried about it as the shop obviously want to make it as difficult as possible.

OP posts:
fergoose · 29/10/2011 12:02

If they don't give you back all your money you take them to small claims court.

I think you should phone consumer direct - they will tell you step by step how to proceed.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 12:05

Thankyou, I have rung this morning but they seem to be closed on Saturdays now. So I'll try on Monday.

Paypal were a bit off really, they couldn't decide if I should open a dispute, they kept telling me to do this before I did anything else, but then I said what's the point if we don't have tracking?

I mean it could be that I get a refund as I should, but I don't want to be worrying all weekend iyswim Smile and I'm really hoping there won't be any confrontation.

OP posts:
fergoose · 29/10/2011 12:22

if you paid with a credit card you can do a chargeback to get your money back after they have been collected.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 14:12

Sadly was bank transfer I think, thru paypal...anyway, legally I think I'm covered, just maybe not through paypal. So trying to look on the bright side. Paypal would have been another backup iyswim. I only have it verbally that they will charge a certain amount for collection, so am a bit worried that they can charge what they want, but then I'll say well no problem, I'll just borrow my mate's van and bring it back myself. (not that I have a mate with a van). I think they will want to collect it themselves.
I'll try to get it in writing before they collect just to be sure.
Thanks again Fergoose.

OP posts:
fergoose · 29/10/2011 14:20

I don't think they can charge for collection can they?

Wait and see what consumer direct say I reckon

fergoose · 29/10/2011 14:25

yes here you go - the seller has to cover return costs

www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/Situationsthatcanchangeyourconsumerrights/DG_183048

fergoose · 29/10/2011 14:26

and call your bank - you may be able to do a chargeback with them, even if it is just a debit not credit card.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 14:39

Oh thankyou, brilliant, have also found this

which seems to suggest that they have to refund the original payment including delivery.
but I have to pay for the return.
So that's Ok then.

As long as it applies to ebay, I mean business sellers on ebay...that's the one thing worrying me. I think that page suggests it does.

OP posts:
fergoose · 29/10/2011 14:43

no - I think as it is not as described they refund all your money and cannot charge you to return the item, you just have to make it available for them to collect it

they have to collect at their expense

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 14:46

Sorry, wrong page. this.

I've just had another email, he's refusing to accept a return.
I've told him he has to as he is a business seller and said I will bring it back myself or he can arrange to collect it.

,trembles>

OP posts:
Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 14:47

Oh okay...thing is, it's maybe a minor issue in terms of not as described.
I don't want to put in a paypal claim for not as described only to have it fail on that, when really I'm supposed to be able to return it under normal 7 day cooling off.

OP posts:
fergoose · 29/10/2011 14:50

well it can be not as described for not being of the right quality in light of the amount of money paid

I would just email and say you are rejecting the goods as they are not of satisfactory quality in light of the amount paid

tell them they have to collect by a certain date at their expense and you expect a full refund of all your money paid.

in the meantime contact your bank and enquire about a chargeback for your money

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 15:04

Thanks, will do. He's now emailed saying that auctions are not covered by the same rules as buy it now, but I've told him he's wrong.

'If however you have bought the goods as a result of a ?buy it now? transaction, or from a commercial trader acting in the course of business, you will be covered, and can take full advantage of your cooling off period.'

I don't know what ebay say about it, but this seems pretty clear that any item bought from a business seller is eligible?

OP posts:
sarahtigh · 29/10/2011 15:09

distance selling regulations mean you can return within 7days of delivery no questions asked but if you accept that you have to get sofa price back but not delivery charges either way because you changed your mind,,, this way you will defintely get money back bar delivery costs; it is perfectly legal to make you pay both sets of delivery costs if you change your mind, some mail order companies do charge you some don't( like NEXT)

if you file a not as described case you might lose as it is real leather etc high quality is not a defineable term leather is. however if not as described or not fit for purpose they have to pick up, you only have to make it available, and they will have to refund delivery costs

unfortunately not having the original packaging will go against you as most business return terms state returns within 7 days in original unopened packaging and unused

fergoose · 29/10/2011 15:09

yes it is eligible - tell him you have taken advice from consumer direct and will be giving his details to trading standards on Monday (they do take a note of his name and business when you contact them)

Tell him if necessary you will take him to court, but would prefer to sort this out amicably.

Have you called your bank yet?

fergoose · 29/10/2011 15:11

and you are entitled to all of your money back - not just the item price.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 15:15

Thanks gals. Just rang the bank, they gave me a number to try on Monday as they can't advise today.

I've emailed him giving him a link to the page from directgov which specifically says trader sales are covered by the distance selling regs, including non- buy it now purchases, I've copied that sentence into the email too.

I've said it's up to him, I can open a paypal claim if he prefers but they will refund the delivery cost as well, while if he collects it without a fuss, he can keep that.
I've also said I'd prefer to keep it amicable as I am watching several other items he's selling, and want to purchase, and I won't be happy to do so if I don't trust him as a seller.

See what he says. Good idea about trading standards, I will call CD on Monday if he doesn't agree to refund.

Bloody sofa, I wish I had never bought it! Smile

OP posts:
fergoose · 29/10/2011 15:16

how much delivery did he charge you then? so you are telling him he can keep that delivery cost?

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 15:34

It was £20 and she said £20 for collection too. Tbh I'd prefer they kept that and we just got it over with than enter into a longer more protracted confrontation.

I just looked up the ebay rules, and it says that auctions are not covered under the DSRs, however the page I linked to on directgiv says they are.

I've not had another reply as yet. Paypal are saying still that I need online tracking to return it, if I am granted a refund under their dispute thing, but find me a man and van service that does online tracking for a sofa. I ask you. Useless.

I'll definitely ring consumer direct on Monday and see what they say, hopefully the seller will just go for the easy life option.

OP posts:
sarahtigh · 29/10/2011 15:39

it seems from the link you provided

"However, if you have bought an item as the result of a successful bid on e-bay, the distance selling regulations (and hence your cooling off rights) do not apply. Neither will the regs apply if you have bought the item through a private sale with an individual who is not acting as a commercial entity"

This suggests that as it was auction DSR do not apply neither would they apply if he was private so your quote sugfgests he has to take it back while the bit I have just quoted suggests not

it is all a bit confusing but auctions are different, as in RL auctions they do not have to take things back it is definitely caveat emptor

fergoose · 29/10/2011 15:51

yes but the seller is a business so they have to accept it back for a refund

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 15:52

It is confusing. I think we need confirmation from Consumer direct on this, there are four different scenarios - private ebay seller, auction: not covered. Private ebay seller, buy it now: covered?
Business seller on ebay, auction: covered or not covered?
Business seller on ebay, buy it now: definitely covered.

It was an auction listing, and it is a business seller. I've no idea whether I'm covered or not.
Also if anyone has any ideas about how to get online proof of delivery when using a man and van, I'd appreciate it Smile

OP posts:
Original poster
JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 15:53

I'm sure that ebay doesn't count as the same as a RL auction...it's a very different format.

Still not heard from arsey sofa man. I think he's gone to consider his options.

OP posts:
fergoose · 29/10/2011 15:58

I'm going to copy and paste the relevant info for you

Under the distance selling regulations, you are quite within your rights to change your mind at any time, return the goods and get a full refund. This means without financial penalty of any kind ? such as a cancellation charge or a ?restocking? fee. The supplier must also refund any delivery charges paid by you, and any other costs related to the contract. Refunds must be made within 30 days from cancellation, whether or not the goods have been sent back. Any related credit agreements will also cease to exist.

You may be required to pay to return the goods, but you must have been informed of this as part of the pre-contractual information. if the goods are faulty, then under Sale of Goods, the supplier will always bear the cost of returning them.
Returning the goods

Unless you are required to return the goods, and you were informed of this, your only obligations are to make the goods available for collection and to take reasonable care of them while they are in your possession. This is called a duty of care. Where the supplier has made provision to collect the goods, this duty of care expires after 21 days, but where you have agreed to return the goods, your duty of care continues until you do this and could be for as long as 6 months.

which is taken from here

whatconsumer.co.uk/buying-online/

fergoose · 29/10/2011 15:58

sorry, from here

whatconsumer.co.uk/buying-online/

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