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Original poster

Returning large items, refunds, tracking etc. Help

181 replies

JaneBirkin · 29/10/2011 11:59

I bought a sofa on ebay, from a business seller. This means apparently that they have to accept returns - and it says on the listing, returns must be requested within 7 days, delivery charges non refundable etc etc. (I know this doesn't mean they have to but I think under the consumer act they do).

Sofa is hideous, well parts of it are - described as high quality but on a lot of it they have used the cheapest, thinnest leather possible that looks and feels like plastic. It's horrid.

I rang the shop and asked to return it. They were funny about it but said yes, Tuesday. It arrived yesterday btw. they said the packaging is gone, so it is a problem, but I looked this up on the consumer website thingy and it said they can't refuse because of packaging and they took it with them anyway. So I think I'm ok there.

Problem is I paid with paypal, and I can't get tracking for the return, because the shop is collecting it themselves in their van. I'm worried they won't refund or will keep too much of my original payment.

I rang paypal who were useless and said that without online tracking they couldn't do anything. I said well, they don't have tracking for the delivery either, so can't I say I haven't received it, once they've taken it away?
They said no, as they know I've received it because I've told them Hmm

I'm not sure what to do. What if they pick it up, then refuse to refund - can I then open a claim? I don't know what the answer is and am really worried about it as the shop obviously want to make it as difficult as possible.

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Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 14:48

Right, interesting development.

I called the bank just now to ask how instant transfer works, the man said it had gone through as a direct debit and could be recalled.

I said hold off for a minute, as I don't want to get into trouble with paypal, especially if the seller wins the case and they then demand their money back from me. So I rang paypal again, they said I could potentially do this, and they think the claim will go my way anyway, but they said I should call ebay and get them to manually escalate the dispute, as that's what paypal would do.
I'm not sure what to do now.
Any thoughts? Also a bit scared of seller getting nasty, if I recall the payment. I guess he can't, if I win the dispute, it's complicated though. Bank were willing to do it immediately.

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 14:51

I would tell the bank to go ahead to be honest - sod paypal. I don't trust them anymore after the necklace debacle. Tell the seller to collect the sofa - leave it outside your house if you have to and hide indoors! Or get a friend to be with you when he turns up.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 14:52

she did say that could appeal the recall though, if it was as unauthorised payment...and say it was authorised. So recommended to wait for result of case.

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 14:54

up to you then - but if the bank do get the money back you can close the eBay case.

How much is it for anyway - I would be inclined to go with the bank then you don't have hassle of online proof of return. I don't know how much that would cost for a sofa to be honest.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 14:55

I think I'm a bit too scared to do that tbh Grin I could have the money back by Tuesday but I don't know if paypal would then dispute that,, and say, actually this was authorisd, rather than trying to get the money back from the seller iyswim.
It's a minefield. I wonder if paypal have got the payment frozen, in his account, because it's in dispute?

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 14:56

And if the seller gets nasty ignore his emails, and if he turns up nasty just phone the police. I reckon he is a keyboard bully, would never dare behave like this face to face. Is easy to be a git hiding behind a laptop isn't it.

fergoose · 30/10/2011 14:57

A paypal dispute will freeze the money, an eBay one am not sure, it may not be frozen until it is escalated, am not sure to be honest.

Even if he has withdrawn the money from paypal they would get the money back, just by sending his account into the red, so they would then chase him for the balance.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 14:57
  1. This is it, I need to know the procedure. If I win the dispute, then he refuses to collect it, I'll be stuffed as it's a fortune to send by signed for courier, and ebay are fuzzy on their requirements for proof, though they said they accept a scan or a signature. I think he will be more willing to pick it up if I already have got the money back, though paypal won't have it back from him at that stage. I don't know what paypal would then do, would they get the money from him or try to refuse the bank.
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Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 15:01

come to think of it, if they do collect it, how can I prove that they have it back? they could say that I still have it.

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 15:03

which is why i reckon getting the money from the bank and then telling him to collect it on a certain date is your best bet to be honest

if not take him to court

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 15:12

I think I might ring him up and say I'm about to do a chargeback, so they might want to come and get it asap.

that would scare him.
But I'm not sure enough of how it works to risk this...perhaps a phone call to the secretary tomorrow.

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Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 15:13

I'm going to call the bank again and ask about this disputed chargeback thing, and if it's viable.
Still on hold to ebay, 20 minutes later, to try and get them to manually escalate.
If they decide in his favour that's another problem.

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 15:36

I don't think they will manually escalate. If it had been a paypal dispute you could have escalated immediately.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 15:52

Yes so it seems. Anyway I spoke to paypal again - they were really helpful. I don't think we need to escalate right away, anyway.
What happens is, the bank takes back the money, paypal charge the seller a fee and put a hold on his account. They may dispute the reversal with the bank, but in the user agreement it says they don't generally with SNAD disputes as it's hard to prove either way. And the bank will always agree with the bank customer.
So it's very unlikely he would get the money back plus he'd have a fee to pay.
I thought what I might do is let him know that I can do this, and the bank is waiting for my instructions, and I'm giving him the chance to come and get his sofa as originally agreed.
Hopefully this will persuade him to come and collect it and refund the money.
I'm a bit concerned about proving he has taken it away. I will ask the bank how it works, what grounds they will do the chargeback on and what proof I might need etc.
Enay said that the dispute will close once I do a chargeback but I want to givehim the chance to close the dispute himself by refunding, before I go ahead.

I feel very uncomfortable to threaten him with this. Mind you he's been calling me a liar and all sorts. And he's being an arse about accepting the return, with no reason. So I don't think he would have much compunction about doing the same.
I just feel guilty about it and that he will be really upset and angry. I don't want an angry person coming here...might get friend to help me move the sofa outside, first, so they don't come in the house.

arghh

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 15:56

why should you feel guilty - you bought in good faith and he is a liar - I think you should tell him you are doing the chargeback to get your money back. He is welcome to collect, and it would be cheaper for him to refund you your paypal payment in full immediately otherwise the bank will charge him for the chargeback also. And tell him you need the refund back before you will let him take the sofa.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 16:02

Yes, I'll do that then. I spoke to another woman at the bank and she didn't seem so clued up, and said it can't be reversed, but the unauthorised team would be able to help tomorrow.

I'm a bit worried again now. It's a rollercoaster, this stuff.
I think I'll email him privately about it and hope that he agrees to do it.

How do I make him do the refund before he gets the sofa?

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 16:09

you just tell him to do it! - he just needs to log into paypal and click the refund button on your transaction.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 16:18

Ah Ok.

I wonder if he will, because he will be worried that I won't let him have the sofa back. Which I will, of course, but it's his problem if he is worried about it I suppose.

I don't know whether to email him tonight, or tomorrow - I think I'll leave it till tomorrow, when I've spoken to the bank and got a proper idea of what they can do, or not...I am worried now that he will get very angry. I have men coming round tomorrow so if he takes it tomorrow that will be Ok. They can maybe help me get it outside and stand there looking tall and malevolent while he takes it away.

It was supposed to be Tuesday though, so if he can't come tomorrow I shall have a nervous couple of days.

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Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 18:43

Sorry to bump this myself Blush I'm really concerned about it.

Nothing I can do until tomorrow and have spoken to the bank, but has anyone done a chargeback before?

I'm afraid the bank will say they can't do it, or he'll find a way to get round it, and I'm also very scared of telling him that I want to do it, but then again if I don't tell him and just ask the bank to do it, he will find out and get even more angry.

If he refuses to refund before he turns up, what then - not give him the sofa? I think he will think I'm trying to scam him if I ask for the refund before he collects the sofa. But he can't do it while he's here - I can't have him using my computer.

I think I need to be very sure I can do the chargeback before I even mention it to him. And I need to ask the bank about how to give the item back to him as well. I am terrified of getting it the wrong way round and shooting myself in the foot.
I also don't want to sound like I am threatening him. I wish I had a big strong husband to do this for me. Blush

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fergoose · 30/10/2011 18:56

And you haven't even spoken to Consumer Direct either

don't panic, you have many options

and the bank have told you they can do a chargeback haven't they?

and how does he know you don't have a 6ft strapping husband lurking in the wings.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 19:03

Thanks Smile I do have a 6ft tall bloke coming round tomorrow to do some work on the house so will try to organise it for when he is there.

Bank seemed a bit unsure. I have checked paypal seller protection, Seller Protection Programme here which says items that are delivered are not covered by it, which in effect means they won't dispute a chargeback on behalf of the seller, but still, it is complicated, and I don't know if I am wise to do it or not.

I think I'll enter a message tomorrow morning in the dispute, saying I'm sorry but I can't take any more stress and just want it over with, and the bank have suggested I do a chargeback. I'll say I don't want to do it, but I am considering it because it would close the dispute and mean I could get some sleep finally.
I will try to sound as non threatening as possible, and ask him if he would please collect the sofa and refund as agreed, because I don't want to go down the road of further animosity and I don't want him to have to pay a fee for a chargeback either.
Then wait for him to say when he wants to collect it (if he does).

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FabbyChic · 30/10/2011 19:35

Hi Jane

Found it.

Get a receipt from the courier who collects, if they then fail to give you a refund you can initiate a chargeback via your credit card company if you paid that way which I hope you did.

eBay advise business sellers they have to offer a 14 day return period not 7 days.

When an item such as this is delivered the company who supplied the item should by rights collect.

Id not worry too much about PayPal as you won't be covered but if you have proof they collected if necessary you can take legal action via moneyclaimonline at a cost of around £25 to get your money back, the cost of the claim can be added to your court claim.

Sorry can't be more helpful, but you PayPal are PayPal and no online proof of delivery is just what it says. So if they don't give you a refund take them to court or do a chargeback if you paid via credit card. Always go through the eBay dispute process they are fairer.

FabbyChic · 30/10/2011 19:37

Sorry you didn't pay by card you paid by bank funding, you won't be able to do a chargeback on a direct debit payment, of that nature.

fergoose · 30/10/2011 19:42

Yes I agree about sending him that message - you are giving him the option to sort it out now

either way, if this fails you can take advice from consumer direct and take him to court or pursue the bank chargeback further - either way he hasn't a leg to stand on to be honest.

Original poster
JaneBirkin · 30/10/2011 19:46

Thankyou, sorry, just seen this! Fabby, the bank said they could claim it back as an unauthorised payment, but I'm not sure if this is correct. Can;t speak to them till tomorrow.

Please don't tell me they're wrong Sad

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