Returning large items, refunds, tracking etc. Help

[JaneBirkin]

I bought a sofa on ebay, from a business seller. This means apparently that they have to accept returns - and it says on the listing, returns must be requested within 7 days, delivery charges non refundable etc etc. (I know this doesn't mean they have to but I think under the consumer act they do).

Sofa is hideous, well parts of it are - described as high quality but on a lot of it they have used the cheapest, thinnest leather possible that looks and feels like plastic. It's horrid.

I rang the shop and asked to return it. They were funny about it but said yes, Tuesday. It arrived yesterday btw. they said the packaging is gone, so it is a problem, but I looked this up on the consumer website thingy and it said they can't refuse because of packaging and they took it with them anyway. So I think I'm ok there.

Problem is I paid with paypal, and I can't get tracking for the return, because the shop is collecting it themselves in their van. I'm worried they won't refund or will keep too much of my original payment.

I rang paypal who were useless and said that without online tracking they couldn't do anything. I said well, they don't have tracking for the delivery either, so can't I say I haven't received it, once they've taken it away?
They said no, as they know I've received it because I've told them

I'm not sure what to do. What if they pick it up, then refuse to refund - can I then open a claim? I don't know what the answer is and am really worried about it as the shop obviously want to make it as difficult as possible.

Thanks, that's good. However I've found something else, here which seems to suggest that DSRs don't in fact apply to any online auction.

Under the first or second heading, if you expand it and scroll down: #When the DSRs don't apply to your business:

auction sales, including online auctions and interactive TV auctions.

? but the DSRs do apply to fixed price sales (for example, ?buy it now? sales) on internet auction sites because these sales are not concluded by an auction. '

So I'm stuffed, aren't I? OTOH I don't consider that it's as described so I can possibly go down that route. I have already threatened him with paypal. I can't get proof of return if they agree to refund on return of the item. But maybe I can clobber him with trading standards for selling such rubbish and describing it as 'luxury'.

I'm a bit concerned now.

Do you know offhand if an ebay dispute (as opposed to a paypal one) requires proof of return, by online tracking, or if they are more keyed towards leaning heavily on the seller?

I know I can't open both types.

yes they do need proof of return online, eBay do sometimes do no fault refunds but I don't think they would for the price of a sofa.

well we bought a car on eBay at auction from a business seller, who pretended to be a private trader. We refused the car 2 weeks after purchase, and wrote letters on advice of consumer direct, finally got the car repaired at our cost as it was sold with faults and finally took him to small claims. We won and got over £700 back plus all expenses.

But we were also within our rights to refuse it and get a full refund, and we just had to make it available to him to collect

Anyway, regardless of all this, if verified by Visa you can get the money back via your bank, so even if the seller doesn't play ball you can get the money back that way instead of a court case.

Does that still work if you used instant bank transfer to fund the payment?

I'm feeling a bit defeated now. He's said take him to task through ebay or paypal, he doesn't care.

He's quotes the ebay regs at me which say auctions are exempt from the DSRs. I've told him I'll check with trading standards on Monday, he seems to be fine with that.

I'm going to have to keep it unless I can find a way of proving return.
I'm not sure whether to open a paypal or ebay dispute now.

Yes, it can still work if you funded paypal with a bank card.

open an ebay dispute - where it says what you want tick the box other and write in next to it refund. This may work to get a no fault refund, it does for lower value items. You will have to wait 10 days to escalate.

You still need to speak to your bank and consumer direct - so all is not lost is it? You do have the law on your side so do not back down. If you took him to a small claims court you would win.

Thankyou...well, I saw this too late to tick the 'other' box, but never mind. I've talked to ebay, after paypal were so useless, and they said that they would be interested in the fact that the seller displayed a 'returns accepted' policy but then refused to accept returns, and also that they have an exemption for large items which means that you can ask the seller to pay for the return shipping.
I hope this is true, I've opened a case with them rather than paypal, because it seems to be a different format, and when you open it it lists the return policy from the listing very prominently so they will be aware of it.
I checked paypal and the payment was instant bank transfer, so I don't know if I'll have any comeback. I do remember last time I had an ebay dispute rather than paypal, they sorted it very quickly.
Fingers crossed and ultimately, if I lose, at least I will have tried. And I can leave dreadful feedback because they are lying so and so's saying they accept returns, just to reel people in.
I'm sure he'll do his best to dispute my claims but I can only do my best.
Thanks ever so much for all your help and support. I don't know if I would win - other people might be happy with the item, it depends what you're used to perhaps, but the blurb is all 'luxury smooth soft blablabla' and the real thing is made from about 10% nice quality stuff and 90% revolting nasty stuff.

I don't know. I'll let you know how I get on.

that is interesting about eBay making seller pay for a return.

You are right to open a dispute - it will count as a black mark against them also.

Make sure you don't mention refund or paypal when you do leave feedback as it will be removed - but then you can worry about feedback once it is sorted.

I agree that the seller sounds like a flipping liar and you are right to dispute it, some people are just charlatans aren't they.

It is still worth calling your bank, some accounts can do a chargeback under the verified by visa scheme, it is not just for credit card payments.

Thankyou, yes it is interesting - I can't find it in ebay policy but the lasy on the phone said if something is very largem you don't hve to pay to return it. Apparently.

The seller has responded saying I changed my reasons. I did say at first that it was too small, and I didn't like the finish. I didn't elaborate then as I felt rude when I knew they accepted returns.

I told them frankly later why I wanted to return it, ie it's appalling quality.
He's said 'Oh the lsiting didn't say it was leather ALL OVER'.

Anyway, I'm still ranting away in the message box trying to make my point. I probably need to calm down and make the kids some dinner

I will call the bank as well. Thankyou.

Do you think they will look at my initial complaint and say, look, you just didn't like it, now you're saying it's no good' or will they ignore my politeness and look at the facts as I'm presenting them now?

if they collect it you could make them a sign saying it was collected in good order get van driver to sign and you sign and give him 1 copy and keep the other

them signing a piece of paper is not online tracking though is it, so worthless for eBay or paypal.

Anyway eBay will read the notes you make in the case. Make sure you keep copies of all messages he has sent you also, they can be referred to in the case notes also.

Your seller sounds a flipping nightmare.

Thanks guys.

He seemed nice when he delivered it, I didn't know it was the same bloke. I've tried being nice, offering to part exchange with other items they sell, but he's refusing. He sounds a bit scared of me.
He seems to think it's damaged., they left it here on its side for me to attach the feet, with something underneath it. It's spotless, no scratches, nothing, I suggested he just put it in another box but he says he can't as it's no longer new. It's bollocks, it's perfectly alright.
Anyway I've tried to stick to the point over and over again, saying it's not luxurious, smooth or soft, he doesn't seem to think it's all leather anyway, so t he listing is really misleading.
He's like a cornered rat. I feel bad in a way. Maybe other people would think it was great, but it's the most mass produced, tacky material you could get, with a few nice bits for show.
He told me to escalate but I can't yet, so the bloody thing will just sit here under a blanket.
Oh dear.
I hope I can keep the cat off it.

We;ve been arguing for what feels like hours.

It is draining isn't it. Maybe he should call consumer direct himself on monday for some advice, it seems he doesn't really understand his obligations regarding describing an item correctly or accepting returns.

I certainly wouldn't be wanting a part exchange from him if I were you, you could be landed with more cheap tat!

And to be honest, I wouldn't reply to him any more now. Speak to consumer direct yourself and your bank, then just escalate the dispute when you can. Is not worth getting yourself upset over. You can't live in fear of opening and reading emails for the next 10 days can you.

You can always add some more to the dispute before you escalate it.

Thankyou. I feel drained, can't seem to relax till it's resolved. If I lose the case I think I'd rather just give it to charity, I can't stand the thing now.

I don't know why he keeps asking me to escalate anyway.

I'll talk to consumer direct, and the bank, and see if they can help though I doubt it, but you never know.
In the meantime I have to keep reminding myself that it is a tacky sofa, that he did say he would accept returns then reneged on this, and that the description (even if he did copy it from the original catalogue) is thoroughly misleading.

Well after four hours of solid arguing we both left it and I didn;'t sleep a wink, and couldn't eat anything.
Now feeling pretty lousy. I've summed up this morning on the dispute page, saying he has stated they normally accept returns, but won't for this one, he's stated that the material isn't necessarily leather, he's promised a refund then changed his mind, and he;'s said it's damaged and blamed this on me.

He's responded by saying I'm a liar and he won't talk to me any more. Fine with me.

I also rang ebay who said I still have to wait another 7 days to escalate. I'll ring consumer direct tomorrow, and the bank just in case.
Meanwhile, if he won't collect it I will have to pay a fortune to get it back to him. I just can't bear to lose this though from the stress POV. Even if I can't physically return it.

Can you jsut remind me, in my addled state of mind, whether the sale of goods act applies to ebay auctions? Or is it caveat emptor? In terms of it being slightly damaged/poor quality I mean. I can't work out if CD will actually be any help, if they will make him pay to collect it or me pay to return it.

yes the sale of goods act does count for auctions. It should be as described, fit for purpose and of adequate quality in light of the amount paid. By refusing to accept a return he is depriving you of your legal rights.

I am sure consumer direct will tell you to write to him and will give you all the relevant info.

And I am sure you only have to make it available for him to collect by a certain date, and if he does not collect I think you can get rid.

Seriously he does not have a leg to stand on whatsoever, he is just hoping you will give up. He is nothing but a bully.

Thankyou Fergoose, you've helped me so much. It's made a big difference to my state of mind, sometimes people who are fighting you can seem to block out the sun, and be bigger than anything else.

I think his motives are that he is scared of losing money on it - he says there's no way it can be 'as new' any more, (I rang to ask to return it an hour after delivery! what did he think I'd done to it?) so he can't just put it in another box and sell it as new (I've left the tags on, it's not being used). He says he will have to sell it to another company who take his returns, and will only get a percentage of what he sold it to me for.

I just kept saying, why did you agree to accept returns then? He has some awful feedback from people on this issue but sells a lot so the volume dilutes it.
On the plus side, I've found that some Ikea covers I bought ages ago fit it - so if the worst happens and we end up keeping it, it'll look quite nice, covered up!
the worst thing is the idea of having him in my house again to collect it. Gah.

if you are a member there is a fab thread on martin lewis website all to do with ebay

Yes, well if you don't want him in your house then tell him he will have to send a courier to collect it.

i don't care whether he loses money to be honest - he shouldn't have lied in his description should he/ That's the bottom line isn't he - he lied about the quality of an item and is now trying to worm his way out of it by accusing you of damaging it.

If you have to arrange a courier to return it you can add that expense onto the court costs can't you :)

Thanks both, I'm not a member but might have a look.

oh dear. I have a feeling he may be well versed in having small claims documents thrust upon him, from the look of the feedback.

OTOH maybe he;'s got away with it so far.

I feel a bit bad because basically, you might be used to the usual Argos quality furniture and this would be great - I've had some well dodgy things from there in the past. Parts of this item are very nicely made. It's just the other bits that are made of , well not sure what it is. the seller doesn't even seem to know. But it's stapled on so it's creased, and bumpy, and all wrong, and it doesn't match the leather bits.
I have seen worse but it's certainly not a luxury item. I have no idea why I thought it would be so great. The catalogue picture and catalogue description, which he nicked, looked great. Misleading I think is the word.

so he used a stock photo instead of a picture of the actual item - he really is very stupid isn't he?

make sure you save a copy of the auction to your computer, right click and save page as and put it in documents so easy to find.

Oh I didn't know I could do this. Thanks a million. I'll save it, I think ebay have it anyway.

Why is the stock photo use significant? It was 'new' so I guess he's allowed to? Or not?

Obviously it didn't show any creases or quality or damage and was very, ahem, airbrushed imo. Can/should I point this out on the dispute?

Darn, I can't find the option to save page. I've got save background as but it's greyed out.
What about select all, then copy, or something...no, that won't save the pic will it.