Spousal Maintenance?

[Unknown83]

I've begun discussing a financial settlement with my STBXW and we've come to a sticking point on spousal maintenance. Fairly normal disagreement I guess, she thinks she should get 62% of the assets (around £170k) and spousal maintenance for life whereas I think after the 62/38 split we should have an immediate clean break. I'd be grateful for other people's experiences and what a likely settlement would look like:

Me: Husband, age 40, earn £90k approx
Her: Wife, age 39, SAHM retraining, earning capacity of around £20k and potential to earn more over time (with the right incentive!)
Marriage: 11 years
Assets: Equity £100k, Pensions £150k. Other than mortgage, only outstanding debts on cars with net asset value of around +£24k.
Children: 3 (all boys aged 6, 8 and 12). Split will be 8 nights her and 6 me.

We're generally agreed on an asset split. She'll get £80k equity, her car and loan with net £15k value and £75k pension and I'll get £20k equity, my car worth £9k net and £75k pension.

The sticking point is on spousal maintenance. I'm of the opinion that once she's got her income (around £1,400 net), universal credit (around £500 net) and child maintenance from me (around £750 a month) then the total of £2,650 should be more than enough to live on without "undue hardship." I'd also have to pay her well over £500 a month for spousal maintenance to be worthwhile because universal credit drops £ for £.

I should also explain that to get my good salary I have to spend around £6k a year commuting to London. So after taxes, commuting, continuing to pay for things like private medical insurance for the children and child maintenance my monthly income is only going to be £800 more than hers a month and as she's getting something like £70k more in assets from me and my mortgage interest is going to be a lot higher than hers for years I think that is fair enough. I've worked out it will be at least 9 years before I catch her up and that's assuming she doesn't progress in her career (she did not have a career to compensate prior to children either, she was doing a minimum wage job before the children were born).

Her opinion though is that she shouldn't have to work until DCs are in secondary school, that she should have a higher income than me to be "fair" and that when child maintenance stops I should carry on paying her to make it "fair" because she's had to "stay at home to look after the children and sacrifice her career." My counter argument is that I want the children 6 nights in every 14 including week nights so she can go and get a job like everyone else.

One other thing to add is that I won't see much of the last £15k of my salary already. £6.5k will be tax, £6k will be commuting costs and about £2.25k will be child maintenance so I'll get about £250 of it! Not a lot for the 4 hours of commuting on office days (and I'm not sure where I'll find the time to run a household on my own even though I can WFH for my days with the kids). I've warned my wife that if she pursues the spousal maintenance issue then the logical thing for me to do will be to quit my London job and take something locally where my earning capacity would be closer to £60k per annum and her child maintenance would drop substantially. Presumably a court would consider that a reasonable adjustment so that I can spend more time with the children rather than slaving away to fund a lazy ex who refuses to get a job?

When am I meant to do my admin and my housework if I'm out from 6:30am to 8pm on all the days I don't have the children? This is another one of those classic examples of unfairness in divorce. I'm expected to go without sleep to do my ironing or vacuuming or to do it when the children are with me, whereas the same people will argue I should be ecstatic if my STBXW only works for 20 hours a week.

OP, I would like you to reflect on this, as that is exactly what many single parents do: you do everything because there is nobody else to do it, the buck stops with you.

That is also why so many single parents are not able to progress in their careers and earn the big bucks… because when you can’t do everything on your own, you need to adapt while putting your children first, that sometimes means moving to less well regarded/paid jobs so you can ensure you can be available or get to work and back to the after school club before they close, so no commuting or long days at work to climb the career ladder, it is quite limited and some times soul destroying.

I would suggest you stop concentrating on the failures of your ex and concentrate on what you want your life to be irrespective of the ex. Because if you continue like this you are going to be crushed by whatever assets/maintenance/contact is granted to your ex. And believe me ending bitter and resentful is far worse than losing the main part of the money, as you need to have your heart in one piece to be able to reconstruct your life and be a good single parent.

I confess that after working in a high responsibility demanding job that required very long hours and being a SAHM, I find working is a breeze when compared to be a SAHM.

Much more relaxed and satisfying, in fact, what I have missed the most are those 3 hours a day I used to spend commuting, those blessed times of silence when I could read, hear a radio program or calm down after a stressful day when I needed to care for NOBODY but myself 😁

@GrandmasCat

I confess that after working in a high responsibility demanding job that required very long hours and being a SAHM, I find working is a breeze when compared to be a SAHM.

Much more relaxed and satisfying, in fact, what I have missed the most are those 3 hours a day I used to spend commuting, those blessed times of silence when I could read, hear a radio program or calm down after a stressful day when I needed to care for NOBODY but myself 😁

You told us earlier what your line of work was and I'm assuming it was public sector too. Your job sounds fascinating and I don't wish to be disrespectful but in your sector you almost certainly do shorter hours, have more job security and get a better pension.

I don't, however, think you have the experience of a gruelling corporate job to do a fair comparison with the role of SAHP. I would love the luxury of doing a job I was passionate about with someone else around to top my income up. This tends to be the experience of a lot of SAHPs who divorce higher earners. They get a generous asset split and enough financial security to do what they want with their life whilst getting aggressive when their ex wants to do the same because of the impact on their CM. A lot of lower paid work is far more interesting and rewarding than the corporate dross a lot of high earners endure. I mean, would you want to work in a bank, a city law firm or an insurance company? Can you even begin to imagine how boring and demanding it is?

@GrandmasCat

When am I meant to do my admin and my housework if I'm out from 6:30am to 8pm on all the days I don't have the children? This is another one of those classic examples of unfairness in divorce. I'm expected to go without sleep to do my ironing or vacuuming or to do it when the children are with me, whereas the same people will argue I should be ecstatic if my STBXW only works for 20 hours a week.

OP, I would like you to reflect on this, as that is exactly what many single parents do: you do everything because there is nobody else to do it, the buck stops with you.

That is also why so many single parents are not able to progress in their careers and earn the big bucks… because when you can’t do everything on your own, you need to adapt while putting your children first, that sometimes means moving to less well regarded/paid jobs so you can ensure you can be available or get to work and back to the after school club before they close, so no commuting or long days at work to climb the career ladder, it is quite limited and some times soul destroying.

I would suggest you stop concentrating on the failures of your ex and concentrate on what you want your life to be irrespective of the ex. Because if you continue like this you are going to be crushed by whatever assets/maintenance/contact is granted to your ex. And believe me ending bitter and resentful is far worse than losing the main part of the money, as you need to have your heart in one piece to be able to reconstruct your life and be a good single parent.

Yeah, sure, but most single parents of young children are not expected by the state to be at work or travelling to work for 15.5 hours a day, so it's not really similar at all.

Also, there's two of us. It's not unreasonable to expect your ex to do their fair share. Two households will need to be run and we will do one each. Both households share childcare. So why would that not apply equally to both having a job each and doing their fair share of the income generation, up to and including the higher earner being allowed to reduce their hours in line with what the lower earner is prepared to work?

I thought you said earlier you didn’t want to reduce hours or do 50/50 custody when somebody suggested it.

She'll be lucky to get any spousal maintenance if it goes to court. What does the solicitor advise is reasonable. To me if you pay for 18 months or until she has retrained, then that's good going.

Seriously I think you should change roles. You clearly don’t get the buzz from the big job and are keen to see more of your children: but don’t do it to punish your ex, do it because it’s the right thing for you.

Letting go of all this bitterness is essential if you are to thrive.

I was commuting before I became a SAHM but I have gone through so many career changes after that I won’t bore you with details, and this thread is not about me.

You also seem determined to find here the best advice on how to screw the mother of your children up so I won’t contribute to that. Best of luck on whatever you do, I hope you achieve a fair agreement for the two of you and your children.

@CrimbleCrumble1

I thought you said earlier you didn’t want to reduce hours or do 50/50 custody when somebody suggested it.

It's been a long thread!

Basically I'm proposing to do slightly less than 50/50 for her benefit not mine. I'm proposing 6/14 for myself so that she gets some CM from me. I know I could just 'give it to her anyway' but if I am paying it then I need to earn it first.

I'm quite happy to go 50/50 but I would have to reduce hours and she would get no CM at all. That would be hard for the DCs so I'm trying to avoid that but I'm prepared to use the nuclear option to get her into work if I have to.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

Seriously I think you should change roles. You clearly don’t get the buzz from the big job and are keen to see more of your children: but don’t do it to punish your ex, do it because it’s the right thing for you.

Letting go of all this bitterness is essential if you are to thrive.

I wish. With the best will in the world she would not have the competence to do a job that pays as much as mine.

You focus a lot on spousal maintenance when the first factor in all of this is the needs of the children and how/where both of you are going to provide a 3(as they are young and same sex) bed property with only £100k equity and only one of you having mortgage capacity as it stands. I think you've jumped through too many websites to find precedents before sorting out the basics in the first instance. As it's very much needs based it feels you need some solid financial plans/budgets to show how it will work for both of you.

What has the solicitor advised in the first instance as a likely outcome? How do they see it panning out based on their experience with local family law courts where this will be signed off?

At 14 years you are close to long marriage territory and 14 years of decisions to enable this current position isn't going to be thrown out

@wobytide

You focus a lot on spousal maintenance when the first factor in all of this is the needs of the children and how/where both of you are going to provide a 3(as they are young and same sex) bed property with only £100k equity and only one of you having mortgage capacity as it stands. I think you've jumped through too many websites to find precedents before sorting out the basics in the first instance. As it's very much needs based it feels you need some solid financial plans/budgets to show how it will work for both of you.

What has the solicitor advised in the first instance as a likely outcome? How do they see it panning out based on their experience with local family law courts where this will be signed off?

At 14 years you are close to long marriage territory and 14 years of decisions to enable this current position isn't going to be thrown out

We've only been married a little over 10 years. Cohabiting a bit before that when in hindsight she was sponging off me but she did at least work then.

The answer to housing isn't that hard and was explained at the very beginning. She can have most of the equity in return for less of the pension. The house we are in is bigger than it needs to be so she will have to downsize. You can still buy 3 bed houses in the local area for £250k and if she gets off her bum and gets a minimum wage job for 25 hours a week her combined income can get a mortgage of £150k. She can also carry on living in the current house until the fixed term ends in a year.

She could suggest a Mesher but she won't get it because she won't be able to afford the mortgage and repairs on her own (and it would be pointless to try and get a court to make me pay the mortgage because if I can't buy my own place then my rental costs are going to be a damn sight more and I won't be able to afford it).

I wish. With the best will in the world she would not have the competence to do a job that pays as much as mine.

I think WorkingItOutAsIGo meant change your own role as you've been talking about, not swap roles with your wife.

@summertimerolls

I wish. With the best will in the world she would not have the competence to do a job that pays as much as mine.

I think WorkingItOutAsIGo meant change your own role as you've been talking about, not swap roles with your wife.

Sorry bold fail. Try again:

I wish. With the best will in the world she would not have the competence to do a job that pays as much as mine.

I think WorkingItOutAsIGo meant change your own role as you've been talking about, not swap roles with your wife.

@summertimerolls

Well I'd like that, but can I actually do that? I think there are two constraints (and feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong).

What would happen if I said I'm done with this £90k job in London? I'm going to take a job locally that uses the same skills but instead of working for a soulless corporate giant I'm going to get some satisfaction out of my work and join an organisation I'm passionate about. That might be a charity, a school, a public sector organisation that provides an important service. I'll also do it just four days a week, with half days twice a week to be a full on parent. I'm still going to be quite well paid but it will be in the region of £45-50k.

First constraint. My STBXW will think I'm just trying to suppress my income and let's be honest, the court is going to agree with her. So they'll think my conduct is poor, award her 80-90% of the assets and SM and tell me to find a better paid job. They will, won't they?

Second constraint. My STBXW would be screwed if I did that and therefore by extension so would my kids. She would be backed so far into a corner that she would be forced to fight. The CMS calculated CM would drop from £655 a month down to £400 a month. That would be £3k a year she could not afford to lose and to make matters worse her mortgage borrowing capacity would drop by an absolutely critical £10k.

Put in that position, I would not put it past my STBXW to make false accusations in order to secure legal aid and ensure she got higher CM of £700 a month based on no nights with me. She's lied and cheated enough in the past three years that I would not put it past her to do something underhand like this, especially as people who do this seldom get punished for it so it's virtually risk free. I might just add this is someone who got her own elderly mother to provide childcare once on the pretence that she had an interview so that she could go and shag a stranger in a hotel. She has become completely devoid of any moral compass and will use anyone for her own purposes.

So, unfortunately to avoid a messy court battle over child arrangements I think any change in my life is going to have to wait.

You seem to think the CM money will purely fund your ex wife in her unemployment. Children are expensive, especially children who are used to living a pretty comfortable lifestyle.

As PP said, I meant change your Job role, as you made quite a compelling case for why it would be better.

I see you are falling into the trap of resisting all suggestions to take charge of tour own life and happiness and handle your own complaints, because you claim that the evil ex will sabotage anything you do. That’s kind of an excuse for not doing anything yourself, isn’t it? You are so enmeshed in your hatred of her, you are failing to set yourself free to live your best life.

Please please please get some therapy for yourself to help you process all of this and come out the other side happily in charge of your own life, not messing it up so you can blame your ex for it.

@DaffodilDandilion

You seem to think the CM money will purely fund your ex wife in her unemployment. Children are expensive, especially children who are used to living a pretty comfortable lifestyle.

I used to do the budget for the household. I can assure you her CM will exceed what she will need to look after them for her 4 days quite generously.

I'm always a bit surprised when people lecture men about the cost of children on this forum though. Where did this assumption that expertise in household finances are a gender inherited skill come from anyway? My mum and my mother in law are both good at it but I tried to teach my STBXW how to log in to the bank account and the credit card and what a budget looked like to see how much we could afford each month for over a decade to no avail! Her knowledge of money issues is so poor I'm worried about getting accused of financial abuse because she can't access the bank account but do believe me I tried!

"We've only been married a little over 10 years. Cohabiting a bit before that when in hindsight she was sponging off me but she did at least work then. "

You've mentioned a 3 year cohabitation and an 11 year marriage in this thread. Like I asked, what has your solicitor told you or did you spend the hour discussing spousal maintenance rather than the important facts of your split?

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

As PP said, I meant change your Job role, as you made quite a compelling case for why it would be better.

I see you are falling into the trap of resisting all suggestions to take charge of tour own life and happiness and handle your own complaints, because you claim that the evil ex will sabotage anything you do. That’s kind of an excuse for not doing anything yourself, isn’t it? You are so enmeshed in your hatred of her, you are failing to set yourself free to live your best life.

Please please please get some therapy for yourself to help you process all of this and come out the other side happily in charge of your own life, not messing it up so you can blame your ex for it.

I can see what you're trying to say but I still think there are negative consequences that eventually impact the DCs. If you're in a situation where you are the higher earner, your STBX refuses to work and you have three children then you have to be practical about it. I can't be self indulgent about my career when my children need me to provide for them not only in my home but in hers as well. I might "have" them for three days but ultimately they're my children all the time and I have to make sure they are sufficiently provided for at all times.

That doesn't mean I think there is "nothing" I can do, only that I know I need a strategy to get from A to B. The first step is to limit my STBX's dependency on me to CM and to kill off this ridiculous claim for SM. That sounds like it's going to be quite easy, especially now I better understand UC. I didn't realise she was eligible for a childcare portion because I didn't understand how it worked. Now I know that she will be expected to work, some childcare will be partially paid for so not an excuse and I would have to come up with well over £1k (reducing my own income to less than hers) a month to make SM worthwhile to her. That's simply not going to happen.

Once I've achieved a clean break and a child arrangement order from the court (I won't trust an informal arrangement, not least because I can't be dealing with silly bollocks with the CMS if she tells them lies about the split) then I can step things up. At that point I will be able to take step 1, a corporate role but closer to home. Cut in salary to about £70k. Will do until youngest is 16.

Then I can downsize again when it's just myself to provide for most of the time. So I've got a roadmap, it's just going to take a little time.

@wobytide

"We've only been married a little over 10 years. Cohabiting a bit before that when in hindsight she was sponging off me but she did at least work then. "

You've mentioned a 3 year cohabitation and an 11 year marriage in this thread. Like I asked, what has your solicitor told you or did you spend the hour discussing spousal maintenance rather than the important facts of your split?

When I started this thread I hadn't spoken to a solicitor. By the time I did, we didn't spend long at all on SM. He basically said the asset split slightly in her favour would be capitalised spousal maintenance, the end.

On the other finances though I wasn't convinced by his answers. Not because I didn't like them but because he didn't seem very certain. So I'm going to seek out a good solicitor that I pay for an hour - these free ones must have a motive and they seem to tell me what I want to hear rather than what I need to know.

On the housing, he was very vague indeed. Mesher - maybe, maybe not. Probably not until youngest was 18. Or maybe. Likely to have to downsize. Slim chance not. You get the idea. (I have a better idea than him. If she got a Mesher until youngest was 18 or 21 I'd deliberately go bankrupt and force a sale, then repair my credit rating. It takes about 6 years to recover from bankruptcy on your credit rating to get a mortgage compared to 10-13 years waiting to get off the old mortgage and buy so a no brainer! It would have the added bonus that I wouldn't be allowed to do my current job anymore).

OP, I started out my divorce journey with a cheap lawyer. They were shit and I replaced them with an well known London firm. The difference in competence/advice and the ease of dealing with the courts thereafter was night and day. Now I have the comfort of knowing that it's over and a clean break is in place.

Get a decent lawyer (recommends are good) and be prepared to pay for it. You'll save a lot of stress and probably will come out with a better deal.

@silentpool

OP, I started out my divorce journey with a cheap lawyer. They were shit and I replaced them with an well known London firm. The difference in competence/advice and the ease of dealing with the courts thereafter was night and day. Now I have the comfort of knowing that it's over and a clean break is in place.

Get a decent lawyer (recommends are good) and be prepared to pay for it. You'll save a lot of stress and probably will come out with a better deal.

Indeed. I have my eye on a local solicitor that seems a cut above the rest. And if I get them, my STBXW can't.

Sorry OP but I hope your stbxw gets the house, spousal maintenance, the lot. Not once have you shown any compassion for your poor children in all this, all you want is to get one up on your ex. Pay for a fancy solicitor whose only goal is to fleece as much money as they can from you. Must be a male thing, rather bankrupt themselves than keep a stable home for their children or pay anything above what they are forced to.