Spousal Maintenance?

[Unknown83]

I've begun discussing a financial settlement with my STBXW and we've come to a sticking point on spousal maintenance. Fairly normal disagreement I guess, she thinks she should get 62% of the assets (around £170k) and spousal maintenance for life whereas I think after the 62/38 split we should have an immediate clean break. I'd be grateful for other people's experiences and what a likely settlement would look like:

Me: Husband, age 40, earn £90k approx
Her: Wife, age 39, SAHM retraining, earning capacity of around £20k and potential to earn more over time (with the right incentive!)
Marriage: 11 years
Assets: Equity £100k, Pensions £150k. Other than mortgage, only outstanding debts on cars with net asset value of around +£24k.
Children: 3 (all boys aged 6, 8 and 12). Split will be 8 nights her and 6 me.

We're generally agreed on an asset split. She'll get £80k equity, her car and loan with net £15k value and £75k pension and I'll get £20k equity, my car worth £9k net and £75k pension.

The sticking point is on spousal maintenance. I'm of the opinion that once she's got her income (around £1,400 net), universal credit (around £500 net) and child maintenance from me (around £750 a month) then the total of £2,650 should be more than enough to live on without "undue hardship." I'd also have to pay her well over £500 a month for spousal maintenance to be worthwhile because universal credit drops £ for £.

I should also explain that to get my good salary I have to spend around £6k a year commuting to London. So after taxes, commuting, continuing to pay for things like private medical insurance for the children and child maintenance my monthly income is only going to be £800 more than hers a month and as she's getting something like £70k more in assets from me and my mortgage interest is going to be a lot higher than hers for years I think that is fair enough. I've worked out it will be at least 9 years before I catch her up and that's assuming she doesn't progress in her career (she did not have a career to compensate prior to children either, she was doing a minimum wage job before the children were born).

Her opinion though is that she shouldn't have to work until DCs are in secondary school, that she should have a higher income than me to be "fair" and that when child maintenance stops I should carry on paying her to make it "fair" because she's had to "stay at home to look after the children and sacrifice her career." My counter argument is that I want the children 6 nights in every 14 including week nights so she can go and get a job like everyone else.

One other thing to add is that I won't see much of the last £15k of my salary already. £6.5k will be tax, £6k will be commuting costs and about £2.25k will be child maintenance so I'll get about £250 of it! Not a lot for the 4 hours of commuting on office days (and I'm not sure where I'll find the time to run a household on my own even though I can WFH for my days with the kids). I've warned my wife that if she pursues the spousal maintenance issue then the logical thing for me to do will be to quit my London job and take something locally where my earning capacity would be closer to £60k per annum and her child maintenance would drop substantially. Presumably a court would consider that a reasonable adjustment so that I can spend more time with the children rather than slaving away to fund a lazy ex who refuses to get a job?

@Sprucewillis

It's funny how so many SAHPs who have "made sacrifices" have had a lot of time to watch trashy TV isn't it?

This just gets wilder by the post. Heaven forbid a SAHP has leisure time. Shall I get back in my box in the kitchen?

You are desperate to pin something on me? My STBXW (and any other SAHP) can do whatever they want with their leisure time. I just don't necessarily think that this entitles them to claim they've "made sacrifices" relative to their ex who has used their free time to study or work extra hours for the family.

They've done no such thing; they've found a partner who "looked after" them so they could avoid the career they never wanted anyway and then got resentful when the kids came along and they weren't the one being "looked after" anymore and were expected to become a responsible adult doing half of the hard graft.

But let's just be clear, this is just one version of the SAHP I'm talking about (and maybe a rare one, I don't actually know many people quite like my STBXW). I've known people in my line of work who have given up their careers to bring up children. They've made real sacrifices and I absolutely support their right to SM - or better yet that their ex does their share so they can get their careers back on track. My beef is with people who seek out a higher earner so that they can be "looked after" and then create a song and dance about sacrifices that they never really made later on.

@summertimerolls

I find it outrageously unfair to think she could retire as a property owner whilst I could not.

Why would she be more likely to retire as a property owner than you?

Once the trigger even for the Mesher order comes, the house will be sold and the proceeds divided. As you're such a high earner, it seems you're more likely to then be able to get a mortgage with your half deposit than your ex, particularly if she's "scraping along" not earning much.

I doubt a Mesher order is appropriate for you though. They're best in situations where the couple are amicable (you're not) and are happy to continue being financially tied to each other (you're not) and have the best interests of the children as priority (you don't seem to).

Just negotiate a clean break and move on. Take a capital hit now and then you have the next 40 years old your life to live as you please.

Because Meshers don't have to be 50/50 do they? She's going to be considered a lower earner and will probably get a Mesher 70% in her favour. So I could be 55 or 56 before I get my 30%. She'll probably play games and force me to go to court to enforce the order too.

And after all that, she'll probably be able to buy a flat with her 70% share whilst I'll be unable to do so with my 30% because I wouldn't have much mortgage capacity.

Unfortunately for you the courts aren’t going to let you walk away with all of ‘your’ assets intact. I assume at one point you must have loved this woman to have made three children with her. Regardless of how much she sat around watching rubbish TV her being at home meant you could go out to work, work the long hours to progress your career to where it is now and not have to fork out for child care. If you disagreed with her being a SAHP you should have divorced her a long time ago.

@summertimerolls

I find it outrageously unfair to think she could retire as a property owner whilst I could not.

Why would she be more likely to retire as a property owner than you?

Once the trigger even for the Mesher order comes, the house will be sold and the proceeds divided. As you're such a high earner, it seems you're more likely to then be able to get a mortgage with your half deposit than your ex, particularly if she's "scraping along" not earning much.

I doubt a Mesher order is appropriate for you though. They're best in situations where the couple are amicable (you're not) and are happy to continue being financially tied to each other (you're not) and have the best interests of the children as priority (you don't seem to).

Just negotiate a clean break and move on. Take a capital hit now and then you have the next 40 years old your life to live as you please.

Sorry, just saw your snide remark regarding the kids. Perhaps you would care to explain why it's important they live in a house that is owned when they are with her but a rented flat with me is fine?

Perhaps you would care to also explain why a man who does a job he hates in order to provide for his children and has allowed the mother to be the resident parent and have one extra night a week in order to boost her income by £850 a month without any loss in benefits doesn't care about his kids as much as a woman who has the capacity to work for 25 hours and make life better for her children but refuses to do so?

And whilst you're at it, I'd love to hear why a father who spends his time with the children interacting with them (homework, outings, board games, family meals) cares less about his children than a mother who shouts at them for laughing too loud and spends 75% of her time on her bloody phone?

@DaffodilDandilion

Unfortunately for you the courts aren’t going to let you walk away with all of ‘your’ assets intact. I assume at one point you must have loved this woman to have made three children with her. Regardless of how much she sat around watching rubbish TV her being at home meant you could go out to work, work the long hours to progress your career to where it is now and not have to fork out for child care. If you disagreed with her being a SAHP you should have divorced her a long time ago.

It's a long thread so I can understand why you haven't read the whole thing. Your accusation about the assets is entirely at odds with what we have negotiated so far (the split should be around 62/38 in her favour).

The sticking point is not what has accrued in the past but financial ties into the future. I want a clean break, she wants to be maintained for life. A Mesher Order could be a risk, but she hasn't mentioned one yet (and to be honest I don't think a Mesher would be good for either of us or our children. For me it would mean renting for years and possibly forever, which means a much smaller inheritance for the children. For her, it will mean no incentive to maximise her own mortgage capacity or to do anything to take control of her own life. Despite her insistence on living off me, I don't think it will do much for her self esteem).

Also, I don't really like the lazy assumptions made about who contributed what. My career was largely put on it's trajectory because of the qualifications I did before we even met. My salary has increased a lot since the DCs came along but mostly through working in London rather than locally. If I went back to a local job, I wouldn't be on much more than I was earning before the children in 2010 (and nothing more after inflation). Her contribution was half of the homemaking until the pandemic started. At that point I stopped commuting and her contribution dropped to about a third of the housework. However, despite all this, I accept the court (or a mediator) does not have the time or the inclination to care too much about any of this in a needs case.

Well you've already laid out how the children aren't your ex's top priority, and no matter what you've done for them in the past, your posts on here are largely about making sure you protect your own assets and income, including making yourself bankrupt to force her (and your children) out of the house. I'm only going on what you yourself have said!

Do you think it is fair for your children to live half their lives with a £90k per annum lifestyle and the other half with a £minimum salary (you’ve said yourself that your wife isn’t capable of more) lifestyle?

The truth is that is is unlikely the courts will want you to pay her SM, any mesher order would be in place for your children not your ex wife but the kids need somewhere to live with BOTH parents and if the mesher won’t allow for that then I doubt it will be put in place. Things aren’t as unfair as you perceive them to be but if you can’t let go of the bitterness and anger then you will probably come out of this worse off.

Daffodil - the wife should therefore also work to close that disparity. He’s demonstrated that with cms, uc and minimum wage job the monthly income is not disimilar and neither is the amount of time the children are with each parent

So if she wants more she should be Expected to work for it imo

But if she doesn’t then he would prefer his kids to suffer?

@summertimerolls

Well you've already laid out how the children aren't your ex's top priority, and no matter what you've done for them in the past, your posts on here are largely about making sure you protect your own assets and income, including making yourself bankrupt to force her (and your children) out of the house. I'm only going on what you yourself have said!

Or rather, your interpretation of it, glossing over the bits that don't factor into your narrative like her refusal to work and build a career when she has time and the capacity to do so.

YANBU to want a clean break.

She's a SAHM but you're already doing school runs & can wfh to facilitate this as well as sick days. So the argument that you're unavailable is not true.

She had no career before children so she didn't give anything up.

90k is a good salary but not huge if it's split over two households. Taking into account commuting costs it's just over 40k per household.

She cheated on you.

She refuses to work despite only having the children 8 days in 14.

I imagine when you started wfh you saw how little she did. Plenty of women have to work and having children isn't an excuse not to. On MN you'll get people saying SAHM are busy all week but I can't see how they're busier than someone working as well as looking after children.

You're still young at 40 and need a clean break. Surely 50-50 split of assets is fair so you can get back on housing ladder. Then you pay child maintenance. However I don't see why you should even have to pay much of this as you're having children 3 days a week.

@DaffodilDandilion

Do you think it is fair for your children to live half their lives with a £90k per annum lifestyle and the other half with a £minimum salary (you’ve said yourself that your wife isn’t capable of more) lifestyle?

The truth is that is is unlikely the courts will want you to pay her SM, any mesher order would be in place for your children not your ex wife but the kids need somewhere to live with BOTH parents and if the mesher won’t allow for that then I doubt it will be put in place. Things aren’t as unfair as you perceive them to be but if you can’t let go of the bitterness and anger then you will probably come out of this worse off.

Well, it depends doesn't it? If she was a high flier before children and our joint decisions killed her career stone dead it would be a grossly unfair outcome. If she tried to do her best and didn't quite pull it off I would be an arse to not help her out.

However, in this situation, matters would entirely be in her hands. She has control of the situation. All she has to do is get a minimum wage job part time. If she doesn't, then I will not be made to feel guilty that life with mum is less generous than life with dad. It will teach the kids a good lesson about work.

Also, once you factor in a minimum wage job, UC, CB and CM her income will only be £400 a month less than mine and her share of the assets will mean her mortgage costs around £400 less to service. So guilty? No, not really, it would be the consequences of her actions and I would deal with it by taking custody of the children, not offering her money to continue financially abusing me.

Sorry haven't read all the thread. In case it hasn't been mentioned, UC will be reduced due to spousal maintenance.

@Unknown83 does she want the children more than 8/14?

@converseandjeans

YANBU to want a clean break.

She's a SAHM but you're already doing school runs & can wfh to facilitate this as well as sick days. So the argument that you're unavailable is not true.

She had no career before children so she didn't give anything up.

90k is a good salary but not huge if it's split over two households. Taking into account commuting costs it's just over 40k per household.

She cheated on you.

She refuses to work despite only having the children 8 days in 14.

I imagine when you started wfh you saw how little she did. Plenty of women have to work and having children isn't an excuse not to. On MN you'll get people saying SAHM are busy all week but I can't see how they're busier than someone working as well as looking after children.

You're still young at 40 and need a clean break. Surely 50-50 split of assets is fair so you can get back on housing ladder. Then you pay child maintenance. However I don't see why you should even have to pay much of this as you're having children 3 days a week.

The fact she cheated is irrelevant to a financial settlement but otherwise yes all good advice.

And yes, WFH was a massive eye opener. I was told for years that she was on her feet all day doing laundry, cooking, cleaning etc but turns out that she was mostly on her phone or watching telly. Which sort of explains why I spent all weekend cleaning the kitchen and the bathroom and catching up on laundry all those years I guess!

Did you say in one of your posts that she is quite depressed? That could be why she has no motivation

The fact she cheated is irrelevant to a financial settlement but otherwise yes all good advice.

This is ridiculous that it's not taken into account.

She sounds like a nightmare. She's lied to you about how busy she was and left you to earn all the money and clean and I imagine entertain the children at weekends.

She's got 28 years of working life & needs to get a job.

Also, once you factor in a minimum wage job, UC, CB and CM her income will only be £400 a month less than mine and her share of the assets will mean her mortgage costs around £400 less to service. So guilty? No, not really, it would be the consequences of her actions and I would deal with it by taking custody of the children, not offering her money to continue financially abusing me.

A highly unlightly outcome OP. There's no basis for this at all. Especially since your STBXW is currently a SAHM. It really doesn't matter how much you hate her or that's she's had an affair.

I'm on the same salary as you @Unknown83 and I was told by my solicitor that my salary isn't high enough to justify it, but that said I'm the one with the kids so that must make a difference.

I wish people would read your posts about your cheating wife instead of calling you unfair!

I mean that obviously it makes no difference to the divorce per se but it will make a difference to how you feel about supporting her!

The one thing my kids wanted was to stay in their home. Yours may well feel the same. Just something to think about,I'm sure your ex is a lazy so and so that shags anything with a pulse (if you say so) but you chose to have children with her and they should be your only priority not your precious pride .

@millymolls

Redhelenb- not once as he shown any less than desire to support his children The lazy money grabbing ex not so much - neither she wants to support them by you know actually getting off her backside and working to support them all the while believing her ex must provide for her forever! Yet somehow it’s the man’s fault, yeah right I actually hope she gets less than the % banded about on here

So threatening to go bankrupt and losing their home is supporting them is it? Poor cuckholded husband.

@RedHelenB

The one thing my kids wanted was to stay in their home. Yours may well feel the same. Just something to think about,I'm sure your ex is a lazy so and so that shags anything with a pulse (if you say so) but you chose to have children with her and they should be your only priority not your precious pride .

I doubt they want to stay in an oversized house enough to spend the other half of their week in a bedsit. I suggest you stop making such ridiculous, biased arguments and excuses in favour of my STBXW. Do bear in mind your argument here is that I should step in like some kind of knight in shining armour and carry on providing for my STBXW so she can avoid the responsibility of work. Basically an arrangement for her of all the benefits of the marriage but with me not around. Sorry, but if she wants to work like a benefit cheat she can live like one too. Provided the kids are fed and warm when with her they can get their toys, outings, clothes, uniforms etc when they're with me.

@Sprucewillis

Also, once you factor in a minimum wage job, UC, CB and CM her income will only be £400 a month less than mine and her share of the assets will mean her mortgage costs around £400 less to service. So guilty? No, not really, it would be the consequences of her actions and I would deal with it by taking custody of the children, not offering her money to continue financially abusing me.

A highly unlightly outcome OP. There's no basis for this at all. Especially since your STBXW is currently a SAHM. It really doesn't matter how much you hate her or that's she's had an affair.

Sorry, I meant 50/50 for which there has been precedent. Only agreeing 6/8 in readiness for returning to the office but I can pull the plug on that if necessary.

One last time, stop turning it into some sort of competition. I feel really sorry for your children, they are right at the bottom of the pile in this divorce.