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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Spousal Maintenance?

312 replies

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 15:44

I've begun discussing a financial settlement with my STBXW and we've come to a sticking point on spousal maintenance. Fairly normal disagreement I guess, she thinks she should get 62% of the assets (around £170k) and spousal maintenance for life whereas I think after the 62/38 split we should have an immediate clean break. I'd be grateful for other people's experiences and what a likely settlement would look like:

Me: Husband, age 40, earn £90k approx
Her: Wife, age 39, SAHM retraining, earning capacity of around £20k and potential to earn more over time (with the right incentive!)
Marriage: 11 years
Assets: Equity £100k, Pensions £150k. Other than mortgage, only outstanding debts on cars with net asset value of around +£24k.
Children: 3 (all boys aged 6, 8 and 12). Split will be 8 nights her and 6 me.

We're generally agreed on an asset split. She'll get £80k equity, her car and loan with net £15k value and £75k pension and I'll get £20k equity, my car worth £9k net and £75k pension.

The sticking point is on spousal maintenance. I'm of the opinion that once she's got her income (around £1,400 net), universal credit (around £500 net) and child maintenance from me (around £750 a month) then the total of £2,650 should be more than enough to live on without "undue hardship." I'd also have to pay her well over £500 a month for spousal maintenance to be worthwhile because universal credit drops £ for £.

I should also explain that to get my good salary I have to spend around £6k a year commuting to London. So after taxes, commuting, continuing to pay for things like private medical insurance for the children and child maintenance my monthly income is only going to be £800 more than hers a month and as she's getting something like £70k more in assets from me and my mortgage interest is going to be a lot higher than hers for years I think that is fair enough. I've worked out it will be at least 9 years before I catch her up and that's assuming she doesn't progress in her career (she did not have a career to compensate prior to children either, she was doing a minimum wage job before the children were born).

Her opinion though is that she shouldn't have to work until DCs are in secondary school, that she should have a higher income than me to be "fair" and that when child maintenance stops I should carry on paying her to make it "fair" because she's had to "stay at home to look after the children and sacrifice her career." My counter argument is that I want the children 6 nights in every 14 including week nights so she can go and get a job like everyone else.

One other thing to add is that I won't see much of the last £15k of my salary already. £6.5k will be tax, £6k will be commuting costs and about £2.25k will be child maintenance so I'll get about £250 of it! Not a lot for the 4 hours of commuting on office days (and I'm not sure where I'll find the time to run a household on my own even though I can WFH for my days with the kids). I've warned my wife that if she pursues the spousal maintenance issue then the logical thing for me to do will be to quit my London job and take something locally where my earning capacity would be closer to £60k per annum and her child maintenance would drop substantially. Presumably a court would consider that a reasonable adjustment so that I can spend more time with the children rather than slaving away to fund a lazy ex who refuses to get a job?

OP posts:
arethereanyleftatall · 25/01/2022 17:15

When my ex and I went in to mediation we thought we would be asking to split based on what was fair. But it's not that with young kids. It's based on what they need. Ie how much money did I need off my ex to carry on giving the kids their current lifestyle (assuming it's affordable - it was). So the computer spewed out what he 'owed' in cm, but that amount was irrelevant as they made up the amount to what I 'needed' using SM.

Chasingsquirrels · 25/01/2022 17:16

I forgot to mention I would let her claim this and pay the tax charge

You wouldn't have any say in whether she claims or not, as the parent with main residence of the children she would be entitled to it.
On the other hand if you are separated then you don't have to repay via the tax charge, you would no longer be part of the same household and her claiming child benefit would be irrelevant to your tax position.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:19

@Hb12

" old lazy arse"

"Sat on her arse"

"Abject laziness"

Wowsers. Presumably she must have some redeeming features, as you married her, had 3 kids with her and are happy for your kids to live there half the time?

She's definitely had a personality change since we married. It was smartphones that really changed her the most, from someone fairly outgoing to someone who is glued to her phone for hours at a time. I really noticed how bad she had become at the beginning of lockdown 1. That was when I realised how little she did all day. I don't think I've seen her play properly with the children in all that time. "Playing" is her sitting on her phone occasionally saying "that's nice" or words to that effect.

Also, once you reach the point that you want a divorce the scales fall from the eyes don't they? Reflecting on our time together I've realised how often I was taken advantage of and the scale of the difference between my work ethic and hers.

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 25/01/2022 17:20

Just go through the courts to reach a fair settlement. I certainly would not agree to spousal maintenance for life. Why would you.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:20

@RandomMess

I would offer her a sliding scale of some amount for year one and less for year two.

Yes she needs to get a job but she is going to have a very noticeable drop in standard of living.

Also ensure you take on the mental load of childcare, DC activities, holiday club sourcing and booking, health and dental appointments and be prepared to do 50% of their sick days and school shit days.

I do all that with the kids already. I tend to be the "responsible adult" in the household.
OP posts:
Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:22

@RedHelenB

She may not need a car but do you not think she might need one to ferry the kids around. I would say spousal up until the year her retraining ends.
No need. Schools are walking distance, town is walking distance, good bus routes. Unless she plans to get a job, she doesn't need a car.
OP posts:
Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:25

@arethereanyleftatall

When my ex and I went in to mediation we thought we would be asking to split based on what was fair. But it's not that with young kids. It's based on what they need. Ie how much money did I need off my ex to carry on giving the kids their current lifestyle (assuming it's affordable - it was). So the computer spewed out what he 'owed' in cm, but that amount was irrelevant as they made up the amount to what I 'needed' using SM.
Yes but they'll be spending nearly half the time with me and if I paid her enough spousal maintenance to make an actual difference (i.e. that more than just wiped out universal credit) I wouldn't be able to meet my needs when I'm with the children.
OP posts:
RandomMess · 25/01/2022 17:26

I still say offer her a small amount of limited spousal. Her solicitor should tell her it's a good deal and you will hopefully avoid court.

Focus on winning the war - clean break, minimum toxicity - rather than the battle.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:28

@Chasingsquirrels

I forgot to mention I would let her claim this and pay the tax charge

You wouldn't have any say in whether she claims or not, as the parent with main residence of the children she would be entitled to it.
On the other hand if you are separated then you don't have to repay via the tax charge, you would no longer be part of the same household and her claiming child benefit would be irrelevant to your tax position.

Thanks, that's useful to know.

So she's going to be on around £2,850 a month. Until my move to London six months ago our household income was £3,300 a month and I'm not going to be living there anymore.

I think it's fair to say she will struggle to make a case for spousal maintenance? What she really wants (I suspect) is me to be around in 14 years time to top up her income when the child maintenance, universal credit and child benefit all stop. I think it's fair to say she won't get very far with that?

OP posts:
ancientgran · 25/01/2022 17:32

I don't know how things work legally and with UC but spousal maintenance for life sounds ridiculous to me. Maybe a bit of extra help while she finds her feet with a job, if that was done as extra money for the children rather than formally spousal maintenance would it affect her UC? If not can't you just do that.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:33

@RandomMess

I still say offer her a small amount of limited spousal. Her solicitor should tell her it's a good deal and you will hopefully avoid court.

Focus on winning the war - clean break, minimum toxicity - rather than the battle.

Possibly good advice. I could agree to that provided there was a bar on extensions but I'll make it conditional on her getting less of the pension.
OP posts:
ancientgran · 25/01/2022 17:33

@RandomMess

I still say offer her a small amount of limited spousal. Her solicitor should tell her it's a good deal and you will hopefully avoid court.

Focus on winning the war - clean break, minimum toxicity - rather than the battle.

Would offering a small amount of spousal maintenance open the door to her looking for more if things change.
Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:34

@ancientgran

I don't know how things work legally and with UC but spousal maintenance for life sounds ridiculous to me. Maybe a bit of extra help while she finds her feet with a job, if that was done as extra money for the children rather than formally spousal maintenance would it affect her UC? If not can't you just do that.
I'm not going to offer her that. If she wants spousal and I'm forced to pay it, she'll get spousal and a cut in her UC. I'm not joining her in any fraud on the benefit system.
OP posts:
RandomMess · 25/01/2022 17:36

The joy of clean break even with maybe one or 2 year spousal would likely mean she can't come after you financially- but check this with your solicitor.

I would also put in writing what activities you are prepared to pay for for the DC. I would be specific such as a maximum of 2 each with my agreement and not necessarily including expensive and time consuming ones such as horse riding and competitive dance.

If it needs to be clean break then stick with it and suggest you go back to the drawing board and have your preferred 50:50 care.

JSL52 · 25/01/2022 17:37

I don't think she should get SM but you sound very scathing about her car.
I assume she needs it to ferry your children about ?
If she sold it how long do you think she could 'live on' £15k ?

AlexaShutUp · 25/01/2022 17:37

She sounds greedy tbh. What you are proposing sounds more than fair and she needs to be ready to support herself.

RandomMess · 25/01/2022 17:38

CMS is the legal minimum you can choose to pay more.

You can offer a flat rate that is above CMS and state after 2 years it will be at the CMS rate (which could be higher or lower tbh)

emilyintheSE · 25/01/2022 17:39

Your STBXW can jog on and get a job!

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:40

@ancientgran

It's definitely a problem that once you agree spousal maintenance then they can come back for more. You get locked into a situation where if you choose to work hard and for long hours and get rewarded for it, someone else can come along and demand a slice. One saving grace is that they would nowadays have to prove a need for it but you could still find yourself dragged to court by an ex demanding more money with all the costs that entails.

You hear these stories of exes who see an ex-partner buy a new car and the next thing they know there's a form E on the doormat (I always think it's a shame that people like this don't pay more attention to what's on indeed.com rather than what their ex is up to).

I think it's possible though to put a bar on extensions when the spousal maintenance must stop which would help.

OP posts:
CandyLeBonBon · 25/01/2022 17:44

@Bananarama21

Go through the courts.11 years is considered a short marriage and she's more than capable of finding a job.
Not so. Also I don't believe op's salary is in 'spousal maintenance' territory. Clean break and consent order is most likely. I'd be very surprised if she was able to achieve Spousal on your salary. Mine and my exH's finances were similar and we were both advised that SM was not an option. This was only 3 years ago.
Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:44

@JSL52

I don't think she should get SM but you sound very scathing about her car. I assume she needs it to ferry your children about ? If she sold it how long do you think she could 'live on' £15k ?
I'm not scathing about the car particularly. I just don't think people who don't have a job and live in a city where they are close to everything can prove a need for one. If they won't work then why agree that they "need" a car, petrol, insurance, a property with its own driveway etc?

Funnily enough all the car seats are in my car and have been since November so hard to claim she ferries anyone around either!

Also, I don't particularly feel the need to say how long she could live on £15k. That's her finances, not mine and none of my business. I just think she'd have to use up the resources she could sell and live off before proving a "need" for income from me.

OP posts:
ancientgran · 25/01/2022 17:45

Thanks, glad you know all about it, it just sounded a potential danger to me.

Unknown83 · 25/01/2022 17:46

@RandomMess

CMS is the legal minimum you can choose to pay more.

You can offer a flat rate that is above CMS and state after 2 years it will be at the CMS rate (which could be higher or lower tbh)

I choose not to on the grounds that she's getting more of the assets. Me offering that would allow her to pull a fast one on the benefit system and I'll have no part in it.
OP posts:
Runnerduck34 · 25/01/2022 17:51

Really you need solicitors advice, oy they can really advise you but I think given the circumstances, morally some spousal maintenance is reasonable.
Alternatively you could go for 70/30 split of assets and no spousal maintenance, your income and earning potential is a lot higher than hers and she has made a valuable contribution by taking on all childcare and enabling you to work without caring constraints, probably taking a hit on her own career prospects whilst doing so.

TwuntyFriend · 25/01/2022 17:52

Another one here who thinks you're actually being more than reasonable OP.

SM is very rare and only for higher earners. Whilst you're on a good salary I don't think it's in that territory if I'm honest.

Sadly, some women don't want to work and be independent - and rely on others to fund their lifestyle.

Please push for a clean break, for your sanity. I'd also push push for 50/50 with the children as it sounds like they need some stability around them which they're not getting from her.

You sound like a decent guy.