Spousal Maintenance?

[Unknown83]

I've begun discussing a financial settlement with my STBXW and we've come to a sticking point on spousal maintenance. Fairly normal disagreement I guess, she thinks she should get 62% of the assets (around £170k) and spousal maintenance for life whereas I think after the 62/38 split we should have an immediate clean break. I'd be grateful for other people's experiences and what a likely settlement would look like:

Me: Husband, age 40, earn £90k approx
Her: Wife, age 39, SAHM retraining, earning capacity of around £20k and potential to earn more over time (with the right incentive!)
Marriage: 11 years
Assets: Equity £100k, Pensions £150k. Other than mortgage, only outstanding debts on cars with net asset value of around +£24k.
Children: 3 (all boys aged 6, 8 and 12). Split will be 8 nights her and 6 me.

We're generally agreed on an asset split. She'll get £80k equity, her car and loan with net £15k value and £75k pension and I'll get £20k equity, my car worth £9k net and £75k pension.

The sticking point is on spousal maintenance. I'm of the opinion that once she's got her income (around £1,400 net), universal credit (around £500 net) and child maintenance from me (around £750 a month) then the total of £2,650 should be more than enough to live on without "undue hardship." I'd also have to pay her well over £500 a month for spousal maintenance to be worthwhile because universal credit drops £ for £.

I should also explain that to get my good salary I have to spend around £6k a year commuting to London. So after taxes, commuting, continuing to pay for things like private medical insurance for the children and child maintenance my monthly income is only going to be £800 more than hers a month and as she's getting something like £70k more in assets from me and my mortgage interest is going to be a lot higher than hers for years I think that is fair enough. I've worked out it will be at least 9 years before I catch her up and that's assuming she doesn't progress in her career (she did not have a career to compensate prior to children either, she was doing a minimum wage job before the children were born).

Her opinion though is that she shouldn't have to work until DCs are in secondary school, that she should have a higher income than me to be "fair" and that when child maintenance stops I should carry on paying her to make it "fair" because she's had to "stay at home to look after the children and sacrifice her career." My counter argument is that I want the children 6 nights in every 14 including week nights so she can go and get a job like everyone else.

One other thing to add is that I won't see much of the last £15k of my salary already. £6.5k will be tax, £6k will be commuting costs and about £2.25k will be child maintenance so I'll get about £250 of it! Not a lot for the 4 hours of commuting on office days (and I'm not sure where I'll find the time to run a household on my own even though I can WFH for my days with the kids). I've warned my wife that if she pursues the spousal maintenance issue then the logical thing for me to do will be to quit my London job and take something locally where my earning capacity would be closer to £60k per annum and her child maintenance would drop substantially. Presumably a court would consider that a reasonable adjustment so that I can spend more time with the children rather than slaving away to fund a lazy ex who refuses to get a job?

@RedHelenB

One last time, stop turning it into some sort of competition. I feel really sorry for your children, they are right at the bottom of the pile in this divorce.

It's not a competition bit the reality is one of us will have to pay the price of her refusal to work and that is not going to be me. The children will be fine. Either she will use what little she has for their benefit or she will lose them. When she wants to grow up and get a job like an adult, things will be fine. I'd even help her out if she ever lost her job (although I would demand proof). I'm not being controlled by her underhand tactics. She's controller me and gaslighted me for years and I'm not doing it anymore.

@Unknown83 sorry but I don't think your wife will lose her children. TBH you are coming across a tad unhinged. If anyone connected to your DC (school/GP/STBXW's solicitor/busybody parent) etc get a whiff of your animosity it is far more likely that you will be prevented spending time with them.

You need to tone it down a bit. You should probably have some counselling. Adults divorce all the time. Shit happens. There is no need to do this to your DC. Sounds like your STBXW is already over it. Your poor DC are stuck with the both of you. Get a grip.

Unknown
Suggest you ignore some on here who will never agree
Don’t engage anymore on this thread
Seek legal advice and absolutely go for clean break
If you need to work locally to ensure you have more time with your children and get better quality of life do so

So it is unhinged to want a clean break from someone who spent 3 years gaslighting me? Okay, fine. I can play the tactical game.

I'm still not paying her a penny of spousal maintenance or allowing a Mesher Order to run for over a decade though (my solicitor told me I could refuse to sign a new fixed rate mortgage on the grounds she is meant to be making best endeavours to get me off the mortgage so it would become unaffordable for her quite quickly anyway).

There's also a lot I haven't said here for the sake of anonymity which may change your mind. A minor one which probably won't give much away is that she very enthusiastically proposed and pushed a move to our current home after she had begun her cheating behaviour. I suspect - though cannot prove - she was already thinking about divorce and it was a rather dumb effort to house herself well for the next 15 years at my expense. What she did of course was put herself into a situation where she is overhoused. So a Mesher would be very unlikely anyway according to the solicitor I spoke to.

@millymolls

Unknown Suggest you ignore some on here who will never agree Don’t engage anymore on this thread Seek legal advice and absolutely go for clean break If you need to work locally to ensure you have more time with your children and get better quality of life do so

Good advice.

All in all you both sound absolutely dreadful, and you're probably well shot of each other. I hope your kids come out of this as undamaged as possible. I'm the child of a financially acrimonious divorce and believe me, those shadows are long. Are you making threats to her about losing the children?

@summertimerolls

All in all you both sound absolutely dreadful, and you're probably well shot of each other. I hope your kids come out of this as undamaged as possible. I'm the child of a financially acrimonious divorce and believe me, those shadows are long. Are you making threats to her about losing the children?

Of course not, that would be awful. Like I said, I'm saying what I really think here.

It might not be pleasant but nor has it been pleasant having my life upended for the last three years by some pretty awful behaviour on her part. All I want is a proper split where she has to stand on her own two feet. I'm not at all keen on driving wedges between my children and her. People change too and although you cannot use divorce to change someone I do like to think her being both independent and responsible for herself will do her the world of good. Who knows, one day we might even learn to get on!

Hi @Unknown83

It's easy to see you are angry at your STBXW, and i get why. I too had issues with my STBXH and the (un)willingness to work, which was amplified as soon as we hit lockdown. My eyes were opened to what actually went on (or not) during the day, it just made me feel like an absolute mug, so i called it last year.
Have you seen a solicitor or actually drafted an agreement on the asset split? If not, everything is open to negotiation and she is going to try for whatever best outcome she can get.
Personally, i would try to have a clean break, as being financially tied together post divorce when you feel this way is not good for anyone (no judgement, just observation and experience).

The job choice is an interesting one, not sure i would be doing that London job with all that goes with the commuting and costs vs benefit, let alone the additional stress and time it takes you away from the kids or just your own alone time - maybe thats just me.

btw - rant away!!! isn't that what MN is for ?

@ItsAllKindaWeird

Hi *@Unknown83*

It's easy to see you are angry at your STBXW, and i get why. I too had issues with my STBXH and the (un)willingness to work, which was amplified as soon as we hit lockdown. My eyes were opened to what actually went on (or not) during the day, it just made me feel like an absolute mug, so i called it last year.
Have you seen a solicitor or actually drafted an agreement on the asset split? If not, everything is open to negotiation and she is going to try for whatever best outcome she can get.
Personally, i would try to have a clean break, as being financially tied together post divorce when you feel this way is not good for anyone (no judgement, just observation and experience).

The job choice is an interesting one, not sure i would be doing that London job with all that goes with the commuting and costs vs benefit, let alone the additional stress and time it takes you away from the kids or just your own alone time - maybe thats just me.

btw - rant away!!! isn't that what MN is for ?

Going for what she can get is reasonable. Wasting everyone's time trying to get more than that is the problem. She wants a 1980s divorce where no one expects her to ever work again even though as we speak she still goes to her vocational course. It is bonkers.

I remember the 1980s - just. No one's mummy worked. That started to change in the 1990s. You married, you had kids as a woman your chances of a career were poor. So things like SM existed. And it still exists for good reason today. It protects the financially weaker party when retirees divorce. It protects people close to retirement age too. It provides for those married to the super rich who can afford to pay it. It also provides fair compensation to people who gave up good careers who might go back to work but might reasonably deserve a top up from the spouse who carried on working.

None of those apply to my ex though. She's young enough and soon will be qualified enough to have a career with salary prospects of around £40k. I'm right there to step in whenever she needs me to WFH and pick up the kids on one of her days. I can share the sick days, the holidays. My career has been described as well paid but not a high salary for divorce purposes but I've amassed social capital at work; I get a lot of flexibility and I can help her build a career.

What I won't do is pay her not to try. That's what happened in the 1980s and it's not a world we should go back to.

@Unknown83 dunno if no one’s mummy worked in the 1980s. Mine certainly did and so did most of my friends mums. But maybe depends on your social circle.

You clearly are angry (I can understand that from what you say of your ex). No harm in venting on an anonymous forum. However, might also be useful to consider if there is something you could do to avoid ending up in the same scenario in future.

Your ex wife and you had roles in the relationship that you both had a part in establishing. She didn’t want to work or be independent but you were willing to facilitate that. Does that mirror the way you were brought up (traditional gender roles)?

Maybe you should have counseling. Many women (and some men if not many) would not be interested in a relationship such as yours in this day and age. They would want a partner who pulled their weight financially. You can’t change the past but you can stop yourself repeating unhealthy patterns. Just an idea. Good luck anyway and focus on the kids.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Unknown83 dunno if no one’s mummy worked in the 1980s. Mine certainly did and so did most of my friends mums. But maybe depends on your social circle.

You clearly are angry (I can understand that from what you say of your ex). No harm in venting on an anonymous forum. However, might also be useful to consider if there is something you could do to avoid ending up in the same scenario in future.

Your ex wife and you had roles in the relationship that you both had a part in establishing. She didn’t want to work or be independent but you were willing to facilitate that. Does that mirror the way you were brought up (traditional gender roles)?

Maybe you should have counseling. Many women (and some men if not many) would not be interested in a relationship such as yours in this day and age. They would want a partner who pulled their weight financially. You can’t change the past but you can stop yourself repeating unhealthy patterns. Just an idea. Good luck anyway and focus on the kids.[/quote]
I must have lived in quite a backward area. Most people were picked up by their mums when I was at school in the 1980s, not just the youngest but most of the older kids too. By the mid-1990s they weren't! Either way, I think we can agree it's gotten better (although still a long way to go) to re-enter the workforce over the last three decades.

It's funny though, I never thought growing up, going to university and in my early 20s that I would end up in a single earner household. I grew up in one but I never wanted or intended to end up like that myself. I always assumed growing up that I would meet someone with a similar background to me and we would be like most people juggling two jobs and childcare. That's not how things turned out. My STBXW showed no interest in having a career at a time when I didn't think stuff like that mattered, then when kids came along decided childcare wasn't worth it for what she could earn and here we are now. She has been retraining full time for a few years now so a clear intent to have a career and an opportunity for me to step up on managing the home side of things but now we're divorcing she's trying to get out of working any time soon and if I'm honest I don't hold all the cards.

Now, I've been done a lot of thinking over the past few days about how to approach this better. I'm done with the venting now and thanks for putting up with that! I must stop getting frustrated with people when it is the situation rather than people I take issue with. The whole experience has already succeeded in turning me into a person I don't want to be and I welcome most of the criticism that I've received. It's been a tough few years the low point of which was when I tracked the family car (which I deeply regret), caught her in the act and then she found out how I found out by hacking my phone to find out what I knew. Both of us have been truly awful people and god help the people around us if all this crap had to go to court.

I also have to own up to the fact that I'm driven by fear rather than anger. In particular, I'm concerned about the way things can be misconstrued. For example, tracking a car once becomes "controlling" (although maybe her hacking my phone makes that one a draw). The fact I handle the money and she can't remember how to access the banking apps becomes "financial control." Calling her something derogatory for finding someone on the internet to have sex with becomes "emotional abuse." You get the idea. Being cheated on repeatedly has made me do dumb stuff that I didn't think was in my nature and some of the posters here add to my concern when they instantly take her "side" without a full consideration of the facts, or they use the children to beat me up whilst saying nothing of my STBXW's tactical play. The attitude that bringing kids up in the early years entitles women to a lifetime of being kept particularly irks me because it is a view my STBXW has been a keen advocate of long before the cheating and the divorce started.

Nevermind all that now though, I'm going to focus on how to get a settlement that works for both of us. She won't love it because there is no solution that doesn't involve her working. No work, no universal credit. No universal credit and she's surviving on about £650 a month CM, £196 CB and nothing else. We could split my earnings to be on the same but the drop in living standards for our DCs would be profound. What I need to try and do is convince her to go to mediation to focus on co-parenting so we can talk through how we're going to do it amicably and have a proper discussion about how realistic it will be to run a household to the same standard that we're used to on a little over £2k each after things like commuting costs. I know people live on that but that is still an enormous drop and is less than someone doing 25 hours minimum wage plus universal credit would be on.

Once we can work out how to get along on the co-parenting (and actually despite the venting here and the tracking vs hacking that has gone on, she's only ever shouted at me twice and I've never shouted at her, because shouting just isn't what I do, and actually we are still on speaking terms believe it or not) then maybe we'll be better placed to have a look at the financials.

Of course it could all blow up and there are warning signs. My STBXW calls the DCs "my" rather than "our" children and along with the refusal to work I have to be on my guard against dirty tactics but at the same time my STBXW gets wound up by the children and I don't think she would want them 24/7 on her own. So instead of focusing on the worst, I'm going to focus on the best and I'll worry about issues only if they arise.

Oh, and she ain't getting spousal! :-)

I don't know where you are getting your information action but your STBXW can claim UC if she is unemployed. It is made up of different elements.

@Sprucewillis

I don't know where you are getting your information action but your STBXW can claim UC if she is unemployed. It is made up of different elements.

Are there not quite severe sanctions if you refuse to look for work?

She would just need to demonstrate she is attending training courses or applying for jobs.

That’s a really good update. Hate to sound too Californian but you’ve travelled on a good journey on this thread. I wish you all the best.

"I have to be on my guard against dirty tactics"

From someone who has openly admitted to anything from bankruptcy, quitting jobs etc as valid "reasons"

You've said you need to change your mindset but it doesn't look like you have. You are both heading for the worst possible scenario which is where a court will decide and it's out of your hands, more expensive, and neither will achieve what you want.

The housing situation and that she hasn't worked for 14 years are both of your problems in designing a solution. You need to come up with something that will a) satisfy her and her representatives and b) satisfy a court that it's equitable.

Every day and every meeting you go through now increases the costs you are paying which would be better spent on you and your future plans

@wobytide

"I have to be on my guard against dirty tactics"

From someone who has openly admitted to anything from bankruptcy, quitting jobs etc as valid "reasons"

You've said you need to change your mindset but it doesn't look like you have. You are both heading for the worst possible scenario which is where a court will decide and it's out of your hands, more expensive, and neither will achieve what you want.

The housing situation and that she hasn't worked for 14 years are both of your problems in designing a solution. You need to come up with something that will a) satisfy her and her representatives and b) satisfy a court that it's equitable.

Every day and every meeting you go through now increases the costs you are paying which would be better spent on you and your future plans

I think maybe you don't understand diplomacy or how to negotiate effectively? Beginning with the weak position the higher earner starts in when divorcing. I've basically been told my needs can easily be forgotten in the process unless I make a case for them because most of the focus will be - not unreasonably - the most vulnerable people in the process, first the children and then her.

Unfortunately though that can overreach and you have to be aware of every weapon in your arsenal including the ones you really don't want to use. Think of it like Western diplomacy. No one wants to use a nuclear weapon, but they still have them and it puts countries off belligerence and towards negotiation!

So, my strongest hand is her dependence on me agreeing to do my job. Her strongest hand is that she can claim to have done more of the childcare. I can cause financial hardship and she can cause access issues but neither of us are remotely likely to actually do that. Nor are we going to even speak of these darker underhand tactics. Western leaders don't talk about bombs to Putin all day (well maybe Trump did but you get the idea!) We just have an awareness of them.

In light of those awful powers and the "costs of war" including damage to children and huge legal bills, it makes sense to be "amicable" even if that just means brusque and business like negotiation. It also means taking unreasonable demands off the table.

A practical example of that in action. I won't talk about shifting to a local job immediately - which would cut her CM by £200 a month - provided she stops talking about being maintained for life which no court is going to entertain.

Bankruptcy would be a very extreme move, one I would only take if she got a ridiculous Mesher Order lasting until youngest is 25. And I would wait to do it when youngest was 18 too.

Maybe you are indeed the worlds best negotiator and diplomat. Your posts don't exactly show it.

Was just giving a view of how it comes across. I faced all the same threats along the way that I'd have to pay spousal or the house wouldn't be sold etc etc. Neither happened but in my situation whilst I was in the stronger position I also knew it wasn't going to work in my favour to paper over the previous 15 years of the relationship that defined where we were at that point. If you don't like how the other person has behaved for 14 years you need a fairly strong reason why you e let it happen, had more kids and continued to let it happen. Nothing there suggests you were dead against it

Maybe you are indeed the worlds best negotiator and diplomat. Your posts don't exactly show it.

Nor do yours! Not only do you hold very strong opinions about my divorce without a full awareness of the facts, but if I followed your advice I would absorb every underhand tactic and do as I'm told. That's not entirely without merit by the way; I have to be a grown up for the children's sake. However, at the same time I'm not quite sure I'm ready to accept 15 hour days and renting a bedsit until I'm dead as a good deal yet!

Perhaps the nuance you haven't picked up on was the difference in what was agreed when we were together and what my STBXW wants now. The agreement was that as she had low earning capacity she would not work whilst the children were young as net we would be down as childcare would cost more. I wasn't entirely convinced it was a good idea as going to work would still have a long term pay off in terms of progression but I have to accept I let that happen. It was definitely a mutual decision that it would be great for her to retrain 3 years ago which has delayed her going back to work when our youngest went to school.

What I did not agree was that she would be a SAHP until my youngest went to university which is what she wants to do now. To be honest I think a judge would tell her to get real especially as she has spent the last 3 years retraining! However, I don't particularly want to spend £20k just to watch her get humiliated, not least because the combined total of about £40k would wipe out nearly half of the current assets (from which I could recover but she probably couldn't). The problem though is solicitors are far less predictable than judges and I've found the free ones will tell me anything I want to hear and I suspect she has probably talked to one of these types herself and been completely taken in by the prospect of more than half my net income as maintenance etc!

I don't think you can influence what she will ask for. She will be taking advice from her solicitor. Her request will be based on that advice and most likely be based on the president that has been set over the last few years. Any threats to her about withdrawing CM, bankruptcy, going for full custody etc will be used to discredit your access to your DC. Tread very carefully here.

I suggest very strongly you put forward a fair and reasonable offer to ensure you get the access you desire. I also suggest you keep the emotion and the slandering out of your negotiating. As you have said yourself your STBXW does not have access to the bank account and she has evidence you have been tracking her location. There will be much more I assume that you haven't mentioned in this thread.

You are on extremely dodgy ground with these behaviours (they will be seen as coercive and controlling). You must see that she will have a counter argument to any allegations you might make.

Keep it clean and simple if at all possible.

@Sprucewillis

As you have said yourself your STBXW does not have access to the bank account and she has evidence you have been tracking her location. There will be much more I assume that you haven't mentioned in this thread.

Luckily not and I don't feel the need to discuss the matter further unless it gives rise to false accusations by misconstruing this one action (hopefully unlikely given that she was repeatedly hacking my phone).

My only question is do you think in these cases of bad behaviour by both spouses that women's actions are treated more leniently than men's?

I don't think there is a bias towards lenience for women, nor should there be. It would be evidence based.

@Sprucewillis

I don't think there is a bias towards lenience for women, nor should there be. It would be evidence based.

Good to know. I think this is why I'm not particularly worried about accusations of coercive control. It's not just that there is evidence of her behavior that is equivalent or worse, the lifestyle told by the bank statements simply don't support a picture of control.

My understanding is that genuine victims of coercive control are systematically alienated from family and friends, denied access to the bank accounts (as opposed to being told "hey, you should get the app for XXX account" and not doing so!), denied the opportunity to work (hmm...) and denied the ability to lead an independent life. Examples I've read include men insisting on going on the school run, complaining about how long their wives are out shopping, trying to prevent their wives socialising, tracking movements over a period of months or years (often after the separation) and other really horrible stuff.

I somewhat doubt my STBXW who has spent the last three years living a life of studying at a college an hour from home, having multiple affairs and with a long trail of spending on the credit card including frequent lunches, weekends away, coffee etc with friends in various towns paints a picture of someone under my control in any sense of the word! Especially given that we moved house to be close to her family.

UPDATE: STBXW found a decent solicitor of her choosing, I agreed to pay the fee and she was told in no uncertain terms that a 39 year old graduate capable of working 30 hours a week will not get spousal maintenance from someone earning my salary. What she would get is a bigger share of the assets, somewhere between 60/40 and 70/30. She asked for 70% instead of 62%, I said let's actually do some calculations to work out how we both house ourselves first and that I would even be willing to go over 70% if that was what it took to house us both (someone suggested this to me when I was feeling low and I was rude to them - my apologies because it was excellent advice) and she said fine.

I don't think she is particularly happy about having to work but at least she's heard it from a third party now and a solicitor to boot.

Sounds like excellent progress.