How do you actually divorce a Narcissist?

[mynamechangemyrules]

I am a long time (5+yrs ) lurker in these pages and the advice has helped me in many ways to survive and understand my situation.

I have name changed as some friends know my user name.

I need specific answers as to how to actually 'do the deed' and tell my husband that I want a divorce.

Summary if you want background:
A short summary is my husband is verbally and emotionally abusive to me and to my children. It even feels 'bad' writing that down. But the evidence is right before my eyes.

To me: are you stupid or lazy? I can't work it out? I'm not happy with my children's mother being a fat ugly woman who looks 20 years older than she is, it's disgusting. You disgust me. (FWIW I'm UK 12 and my besties would say I'm alright for 40 ) And all day every day: why are you eating/ doing/ saying that? Questioning questioning and 'retaliating' to simple statements. Me:'I had a tough day at work' H:'Have you finished moaning because i was watching tv' etc etc etc. Honestly that's not even an hour's worth.

'I know you accept mediocrity but I don't. Imagine if our kids ended up like you, fucks sake'

To the DCs (7/5/1): What the fuck is wrong with you? You know you're weird right? All the kids at school will laugh and call you stinky kid (he hates to clean his teeth, he hears this every day) Get this kid away from me I can't fucking bear him. Why do you do that? Are you stupid? Well you must be stupid because you don't listen to what I say.

Pins DC1 up against walls/ floor. Locks DCs 1&2 our of the house.

This is awful. This much I know. For reference I work in education. I know this is bad but my normal has just shifted slightly every time it escalates.

So after the most recent 'major event' (I disagreed on a timing question. He dragged DC1 upstairs by one arm, he told me I disgusted him, he told me we were not allowed to leave the house. He told me if I did he would call the police. Obv I realise they would've told him to fuck off but in the moment my brain doesn't work like that.)
I have been to a lawyer. We live overseas and I have clarified that I am in a strong position:
I work, he doesn't, (he is NOT a SAHD- he is 'job hunting', (he has a lucrative career so doesn't need to work all year) he does nothing with them, we have full time childcarer who has known them all from birth. I come home from work and do dinner bath bed while he watches tv or reads the iPad)
His visa rests on my job
I have plenty of financial security of my own (although he 'manages' it all so I'd have to change passwords etc on accounts)

I have told more people in RL about the situation as if to 'prep' them... They were all like 'of course we'd noticed, he's a knob' which was somehow reassuring.

So... technically I am 'ready'.

But how do I even begin?

Despite all above I think he has very little understanding of where we are with this. As everything is brought back to him all the time- eg 'It ruins my night if I have to physically restrain DC1, I just get so upset' rather than how DC1 is feeling- that I think he would be blown away if I just come out and say I want a divorce.

Do I go straight for that?

Do I book counselling? (Such a thing here would be upwards of £200 a session and hard to find someone of a cultural 'match')

How do I say it?

Should I get the kids out for the day?

How do I time it with basic 'family' events coming up? (Holidays/ special days etc?)

Sorry for the ramble and multiple questions but the gist is HOW????

Xenia, after 3 weeks I got him out of the house and we (children and I) are back in. I didn't really want to come back here, and children's behaviour has gone back a bit being here, but my lawyer was insistent about it due to the 'family home' angle- especially since he is unemployed but now styling it as 'stay at home dad'. If it wasn't so awful it would be funny, he's done more with them in the last month than ever before.

Frigging hell. I have received such a similar message, it’s uncanny. He’s blaming you, being a condescending twat, and threatening - all in a very reasonable tone. I really hope you can see that. I don’t think there needs to be anyone to blame. We don’t love each other but we both love you. We will never stop loving you because you are a part of us, and both only want the best for you. If he starts to try and turn the children with his version- all bests are bloody off. I’ve seen too many children turned from either their Mum or dad because the other parent didn’t believe in keeping it neutral. There is no point t in keeping it neutral if the other parent doesn’t. It then juts seems the other parent must be right. If they are telling you mummy is a bitch, and Mum is saying your dads a good person, juts not for me- the inference is if you think dad is a good person, then his opinion must be valid. I really do wish you the best. And I’m glad you have this thread and the IRL club. I really hope it’s enough. I hope you get to have you back one day x

RandomMess are we 'allowed' to say stuff like that?! I thought it all had to be v neutral and no blame given (despite wanting to after that inflammatory email last night!!)

I think by being too ‘neutral’ with the children they will feel confused and conflicted. Especially your older ones. He pinned your 7 year old against a wall. He locked dc 1 and 2 out of the house. He dragged DC1by the arm. They know all this. He was horrible to them. And to you.

There is no need to lay it all out for them and yes it has to be age appropriate but children often blame themselves in a marriage breakup. I would think that would be especially true in a scenario where there doesn’t seem to be a particular reason for the break up.

I think if it were me I would be getting advice on how honest to be but I would gently explain to the DCs that the things daddy did were not very nice and as he is not nice to live with you asked him to move out. We both still love you but it’s better this way for all of us.

And you know your stbx will take any opportunity to be critical of you. You don’t have to stoop to his level but you don’t have to be too nice either.

You hold all the cards. You can revoke his visa. I think that would be very hard on the children but it’s certainly something you can hold over him.

I would send him an email saying that you will explain in honest age appropriate language what is happening and you won’t have your conversations with your children micro-managed by him. He lost that right when he was both physically and verbally abusive to you and the children. I would say that you want this process to be as easy and amicable as possible for everyone but especially the children but if you see that he is still being abusive and his behaviour is detrimental to the children you will have to consider whether it is in the children’s and your best interests for him to remain. Possibly not as obvious as that but he needs reminding that YOU hold the cards. He also needs reminding that you didn’t just wake up one morning and decide you wanted to break up. HIS behaviour has caused this.

Maybe a friend could help you draft a letter or your solicitor. He is an abusive bully. You know this. He doesn’t play nice.

I've never seen so much back and forth for what is a simple conversation with kids that will keep coming up. He is drawing this out to a ridiculous extent. It's so he's keeping the control. Controlling the speed of progress.

Tell the kids ASAP. Don't wait for him. Label abusive behaviour as abusive. Tell them why you don't love him.

Thank you for answering. So you are back in the home with the children and he is not living there. That is absolutely fine and very sensibel from a legal point of view and it should ideally stay that way. I am not sure you can exclude him from the house without a court order (my ex was advised not to move an inch until the whole divorce was finalised which was a pretty awful 7 months of us both living here).

His email conversation is particularly fascinating (and awful). You need less contact and to think about it less and as people say above just say you will explain in appropriate language to the children the situation if they ask (there is no need to tell them - we didn't tell the youngest until late in the process when they needed to know).

We did not have this kind of communication issue but people that do tend to find they have to reduce contact. Some say only communicate through the solicitor although I would avoid that if I were you otherwise you both rack up very large bills and sometimes it gets ridiculous with someone emailing the solicitor please email my wife to say [ something very trivial about child collection on one day] etc etc

If he did what Cider says then the children will know perfectly well what the issue is. Nothing my children's father could say (he did not even try) would expunge from the memory of our older ones his bad conduct at home. One of mine even documented it unprompted typed (although these days a teenager would record on their phone - this was over 10 years ago for us and I still wake up every day feeling like it is Christmas that he is not here).

Wow how exhausting. I couldn't deal with any of that back and forth. I think it's time to start ignoring his dialogue. Be careful what you respond in emails as he could use this as evidence to his lawyer or towards trying to get full custody of children, by saying you said that he didn't do anything wrong etc. Don't allow him to micro manage you with what you say to the children! I bet the kids aren't asking these questions and he's just lying and saying they are to try and guilt you. He's probably putting questions into their mouth... God this whole thing is infuriating, I would want to revoke his visa to just get rid of him. Can't you just block his email? Tell him to communicate through your lawyer.

Also, you need your car back so you aren't relying on him to drive kids about! Are you doing anything about that?

Also what happened to the money he stole? Did you get it back

Never ever ever two an aggressive narc you are leaving . You make an exit plan without him guessing . Keep him sweet don't let him find out . Behind his back you inform the police of your situation . And you leave quietly in his absence . You don't discuss divorce with a narc. Take it from me .

There are no rules on what you are "allowed" to say. A good parent will say a gentle age appropriate truth.

Do not engage with him on this!!! No long response, it's probably best to. It respond at all because he will use it to trap you!!!

Age appropriate truth should probe " do you remember when Daddy did unkind things to us like x y x. Well that's not ok, he shouldn't be hurting us like that so I made him leave." I had forgotten he had physically assaulted the DC etc.

Please please get this man out of your head and grey rock his micro managing.

Grey rock response "I have received your email I am parenting the DC appropriately but thank you for concern"

Having just divorced a Narcissist, he chose for months to send non stop emails demanding responses. My lawyer responded to only those she was required to respond to and those rambling demanding emails came back to haunt him in the end.

Please do not engage with him any more. Let your lawyer speak for you from now on.

You are not required to nor should you respond or talk to him unless there is some serious issue with the children he needs to be made aware of and even then, if possible, let the attorney notify him.

Time to go silent and no time to work out visitations, support or anything else. Lawyer, lawyer, lawyer.....it's their job and your job is to start rebuilding your life with your children.

The more you communicate with him the more exhausting the process will be. I can tell you the best and only way to deal with divorcing a Narcissist is to stop communicating directly.

The more you engage the more he will attempt to manipulate you. You are already seeing him attempt to get in your head by making all this extra effort with your children and it bothers you. Stop focusing on what he is saying and doing and focus on you and your children.

It's the hardest thing to do, but ignore, ignore, ignore. Your lawyer can speak for you without the emotions getting in the way. Stop trying to look good and go out of your way to give access and be the good parent. You ARE a good parent, you took steps to make your children grow up in a emotionally and physically safe home.

I promise you he will say and do things to provoke you into responding. He will say things to family and friends and make you you hear about it....flying monkeys doing his dirty work. Ignore, ignore, ignore.

No phone calls.
No texts.
No emails.
No, no, no communication. If you let your lawyer do it, she will communicate about visitations and access.

Hugs and be strong but he will do everything to get in your head and make you feel guilty. You don't need to know what he wants to tell the children or his opinions on anything. You now get to make decisions for your children without the need for his approval. Tell them as much or little as you want, but don't go into details. Age appropriate, you are not living with daddy right now and you know that it's hard, but you both love them and want what's best.

When he does have access he will grill them about every aspect of your life. Don't ask them the same, don't play his games.

He will shortly return to type and stop the charm. When you stop engaging him he will eventually have his melt downs and all the friends/family on the side lines will see the mask drop.

Time to stop pleasing him and until your lawyer sorts things out, no contact, no visitation, nothing.

One more thing, print off any emails, texts and document everything.

Agree with others. Stop engaging with him so much. You know you have done the right thing and you’re children will know in time too.

" I will unfortunately assure that your lack of responsibility taken and ignorance shown in our relationship for many years will eat away at you for the rest of your life, way longer than how it all appears now."

That's a nice little threat, isn't it? That's how narc's operate...

Disengage. He is turning the whole situation on it's head which is precisely what these kind of people do - it's all your fault...when of course it isn't - minimize contact. You know that what you are doing is protecting your children and yourself.

Grey rock - do not show an emotional response. Just get on with the job of looking after your children and yourself. I would ignore the 'specialist help' stuff - what does he mean? Finding a dodgy psychotherapist that can claim you are nuts and then filing for custody of the children? Hmmmm....

Just ignore his threats and tantrums...I don't believe a word of what he wrote back to you....not a word....

Just to clarify - I would not believe a word of this - it's text-book 'mind-f*' stuff...text-book:

This morning, DC1 was pressing me to answer the question of where I slept last night. He asked me 4 times and I was eventually able to divert his attention to something else without giving a straight answer. This is all understandable given that I picked him up from the house at 7.45am. This is also after him asking me to sleep at home last night. It will be difficult to put this off much longer. In fact just at bedtime this evening both boys asked the same question again. Although for a period I might be able to explain I’m staying in a holiday house like they did (which I did actually hint at this evening) - I don’t mind them coming to see where I’m staying and this may soften the hard truth at some point in the near future. But either way we need robust narrative ASAP.

Given the pressure to have clear answers, you previously mentioned seeing someone to help us craft answers and as I have said below, this makes sense to me and is clearly required given some of the proposed answers that you gave. It is obvious that it is important to you that it is made clear what role you had in the end situation and how you feel from your angle. But that it really isn’t important to the children at this point and will just highlight bitterness that you may have, which is quite clear in your drafts below and quite honestly should be toned down.

As an aside, whilst it is clear now that an emphasis for you is that others see the situation from your angle and how you are doing something about it, to have this at your advantage going forward, it is important to remember that there are two in a relationship; we both know how we got to where we are now and I will unfortunately assure that your lack of responsibility taken and ignorance shown in our relationship for many years will eat away at you for the rest of your life, way longer than how it all appears now.

But back to the most important thing, the children - I still see it as important that we quickly consult a specialist on how to deal with the children as neither you or I are experienced or are an expert in how to do this effectively. But see my responses to your drafts below in green, to indicate where I am coming from, to provide more balance and rounded answers.

Can you redirect his emails straight to a lawyer? Then you could simply answer him with a ‘all your correspondence has been forwarded to X lawyer’ and not engage with him at all.

What a lying, conniving scumbag.

Only thing with directing to a lawyer is the expense. Mine charged per email - in snd out.

I think it's best to know deep down that you are not doing anything wrong, keep posting on here for support and IRL and try and find peace in his messages in that thanks to them, you really know that by leaving him is the best thing for you and your children

I play a sort of Bingo with my STBXH messages... it helps me to cope and makes me feel a bit better at his predictability.

So one point for each time he says l am ripping him off, another for turning the kids against him, another for money grabbing etc ... oh and a bonus point for when he comes up with a new insult like I'm vindictive

Op, you have done amazingly.

The doubts you are experiencing are completely natural.Unless others have experience of Narcisstic partner they cannot view your ex through the irrational lens.

I am 18months down the line and only now do some family members "get it".Some still feel he is just "stressed" so will calm down but I know his actions are a feature of him.

A physiologist explained that mental health professionals are learning more about personality disorders and it's thought to be more common than eating disorders.It is just hidden.

Please don't feel too disheartened about the future.I have already seen how my dc are benefiting since I left, they have to spend time with ex (who went into super dad mode but it didn't last) but time with me shows them how to respond normally to emotions.
There is a now a real chance that I will break the cycle..ex is likely to be the way he is because of his parents.

I have seen this with another friend who's ex is abusive.Over time, its at least 2 years, she has grown in confidence and her children see the contrast in parenting and are learning skills to deal with their dad.

Had you stayed your children will not have known there is a different way to be a partner and parent.This is such a gift you are giving them.

I won't say its easy separating from a narc but just view each step as progress.

In a year you will be here advising others and only then know the progress you have made.

Could not agree more. Best to disengage sooner rather than later...if you stay you are modelling dysfunctional relationships for your children. One of my children at the late teens'/early twenties stage became interested in a person who decided to 'play' her...he felt able to do this because he was aware of the dysfunction within the family home...don't allow your own children to be this disadvantaged.

Hi- so am 4 years divorced from a narc- things just as difficult as when I left him. My sister now deals with all correspondence from him (he doesn't know this and thinks he's speaking with me via email and text etc) as I couldn't cope with the daily rants I'd receive and living in fear of what his next rant or angry outburst would be about. But she ignores as many of his messages as possible and replies in a business like fashion when she has to. Biggest problem I'm facing relates to the children and him being emotionally abuse to the children. Both children seeing a therapist who wants to involve the school and social services to help resolve the situation. Anyone else dealing with this? How do you help your children cope with horrific mental and emotional abuse from a narc Father?

Andrewsgirl - yes yes to getting all professionals involved, they will be seen as impartial!

Your job is to give your kids better tools to deal with this. And if the time comes, to enable them to say enough.

Andrewsgirl - this unfortunately is what can happen post-divorce with a narcissist/psychopath or otherwise personality disordered person. Or even just a nasty person. One of my friends divorced years ago and ex made sure she got a lousy settlement despite three children - at the time quite young. She initiated the divorce and he was furious and determined to punish her plus control her financially. Even though her remarried quite early on, he was still bitter and twisted about the divorce (he did a rebound job plus I think wanted to make her jealous - wife number two is miserable and their eldest child has mental health issues.) But to cut a long story short, I have watched this train crash in slow motion and I have always wondered how my friend could have done things differently to avoid such a terrible divorce and aftermath.

Her ex refused counseling, either joint or individually and insisted that the problem lay entirely with my friend. He also managed to turn the children against her for a time - although I think they are able to see her point of view more now but this is years down the line.

I think part of the problem lay in the fact that my friend did not have a strong enough support system. Her parents had died and her siblings were much older and old-fashioned and saw her as the troublesome little sister. My friend did have some counseling but I think it is really important to have a counselor who understands how narcissists/psychopaths and personality disordered people can work. If a person lacks empathy they will only see things from their own perspective. Even the most reasonable, rational person come become somewhat unhinged and deranged during a divorce due to the heightened emotions involved. Children and money can become bargaining tools in an increasingly bitter war.

The ongoing emotional abuse for the children from the narcissistic ex-spouse is a nightmare to deal with. Although my children are older I now wish I had been more candid with them from the outset. I should have clearly explained that I was no longer happy in the marriage but that did not mean that either of us was any less committed to them. I think we would all have benefited from some family therapy sessions when we were first splitting up. Our younger child was still living at home and it was difficult for her to process some of the emotions she was going through over the divorce. I think a kind therapist would have been helpful and some family and individual counseling sessions would have been a comfort for her and also would have helped her to negotiate her way through some of the complicated emotions involved and make it all seem less scary.

I seem to have gone quite off-tangent. The question was: 'How do you help your children cope with horrific mental and emotional abuse from a narc Father?' I would say that this is age-dependent. With younger children I would minimize contact as much as possible and try to ensure the children are seldom if ever alone with the narc parent. Harder said than done of course. Ideally, there would need to be tight boundaries around topics of conversation but how can this be enforced? If the therapist wants to involve the school and social services then perhaps it can be arranged that there is always a neutral third party around when the children have contact with their father? And conversations are monitored? Is the GP involved? Sorry, I don't have specific experience of this as my children were much older but I have seen the harm that can be caused so you are right to take this seriously. The more robust the support systems, the better. It's great you have a sister who will filter messages. In your shoes I would probably take the counselors advice. Your ex will know exactly what he is doing. Narcs are bullies - he is picking on his own children because they are vulnerable. It is despicable behaviour.

Just to add - narc's will turn their own children into flying monkeys if they can get away with it. Bullying by proxy is, of course, the holy grail for a narc. And what better way to get back at the ex and indeed inflict pain and anguish on the ex than by using the children? But remember, the courts put the welfare of the children first. A judge will have a very dim view of a parent who is using the children as pawns. Both parents are supposed to work together to ensure the welfare of their children. Also worth remembering that there is now a law against coercive control and it doesn't just apply to an emotionally abused spouse. One of my friends whose ex turned her (grown-up) children against her was successful in the use of the law. Her soon to be ex thought he had a right to emotionally and psychologically abuse her because he was married to her and she was the mother of his children. The law saw otherwise.