How do you actually divorce a Narcissist?

[mynamechangemyrules]

I am a long time (5+yrs ) lurker in these pages and the advice has helped me in many ways to survive and understand my situation.

I have name changed as some friends know my user name.

I need specific answers as to how to actually 'do the deed' and tell my husband that I want a divorce.

Summary if you want background:
A short summary is my husband is verbally and emotionally abusive to me and to my children. It even feels 'bad' writing that down. But the evidence is right before my eyes.

To me: are you stupid or lazy? I can't work it out? I'm not happy with my children's mother being a fat ugly woman who looks 20 years older than she is, it's disgusting. You disgust me. (FWIW I'm UK 12 and my besties would say I'm alright for 40 ) And all day every day: why are you eating/ doing/ saying that? Questioning questioning and 'retaliating' to simple statements. Me:'I had a tough day at work' H:'Have you finished moaning because i was watching tv' etc etc etc. Honestly that's not even an hour's worth.

'I know you accept mediocrity but I don't. Imagine if our kids ended up like you, fucks sake'

To the DCs (7/5/1): What the fuck is wrong with you? You know you're weird right? All the kids at school will laugh and call you stinky kid (he hates to clean his teeth, he hears this every day) Get this kid away from me I can't fucking bear him. Why do you do that? Are you stupid? Well you must be stupid because you don't listen to what I say.

Pins DC1 up against walls/ floor. Locks DCs 1&2 our of the house.

This is awful. This much I know. For reference I work in education. I know this is bad but my normal has just shifted slightly every time it escalates.

So after the most recent 'major event' (I disagreed on a timing question. He dragged DC1 upstairs by one arm, he told me I disgusted him, he told me we were not allowed to leave the house. He told me if I did he would call the police. Obv I realise they would've told him to fuck off but in the moment my brain doesn't work like that.)
I have been to a lawyer. We live overseas and I have clarified that I am in a strong position:
I work, he doesn't, (he is NOT a SAHD- he is 'job hunting', (he has a lucrative career so doesn't need to work all year) he does nothing with them, we have full time childcarer who has known them all from birth. I come home from work and do dinner bath bed while he watches tv or reads the iPad)
His visa rests on my job
I have plenty of financial security of my own (although he 'manages' it all so I'd have to change passwords etc on accounts)

I have told more people in RL about the situation as if to 'prep' them... They were all like 'of course we'd noticed, he's a knob' which was somehow reassuring.

So... technically I am 'ready'.

But how do I even begin?

Despite all above I think he has very little understanding of where we are with this. As everything is brought back to him all the time- eg 'It ruins my night if I have to physically restrain DC1, I just get so upset' rather than how DC1 is feeling- that I think he would be blown away if I just come out and say I want a divorce.

Do I go straight for that?

Do I book counselling? (Such a thing here would be upwards of £200 a session and hard to find someone of a cultural 'match')

How do I say it?

Should I get the kids out for the day?

How do I time it with basic 'family' events coming up? (Holidays/ special days etc?)

Sorry for the ramble and multiple questions but the gist is HOW????

Butterballs, good points, difficulty is that narcs can appear so credible to outside agencies.Dc are in counselling yet counsellor believes ex loves them deeply and put their needs first because he is si articulate.
I am sure ex has convinced his legal team that I am abusive despite trying to be amicable from the outset.
He upsets dc and when they are off with him its obviously "parental alienation".
If the dc try to raise issues with him, such as stating their needs he reacts so badly and accuses them of being twisted by me.
If they are quiet when with him (aka walking on eggshells) he will demand they tell him what I have done to upset them!

Its so irrational.Dc do get it however and I am fortunate that at least 2 have very high emotional intelligence.
They know he is seething despite him saying he isn't.They know they can be themselves with me and have to watch what they say to him.
They know to not believe when he says he gives all his money to me..I don't have the midlife toys or expensive holidays.

Dc do work it out in the end and sadly you have to let your dc experience their dads behaviour for themselves and comfort them when it makes them sad.

Yes, I agree with all of the above. Narcs do indeed appear very credible and often seek positions where their 'goodness' can shine (ahem!) They can sometimes be the 'life and soul of the party' type people so are influential and make their mark. They can and do influence counselors and of course some counselors are narcs themselves or at least can have their own agendas and not be particularly empathetic. I actually think that both our lawyers would have clocked my soon to be ex from the outset. Nevertheless he has been very successful in playing the victim card and soliciting much TLC from the children (thankfully now grown up). Narcs are not reasonable or logical when it comes to dealing with their sources of supply. I ignored some huge red flags from the outset.

I agree with what you are saying about money - I think my soon to be ex has spun the narrative that I have taken him to the cleaners and the problem is that I don't have a job. The problem in reality is that he cannot manage his finances or budget and has all the midlife toys and expensive holidays which you mention but without the finances to pay for them. He is used to me or my family picking up the bill - a cushion that is about to pulled from under him.

I do totally agree that eventually you have to let your dc experience the behaviour themselves. They will work it out for themselves in the end and I think that ultimately trying to totally shield them from the behaviour, or even deny it, will backfire big time as the dc will not be able to trust their own judgements. Gas-lighting is a device well-loved of the narcissist and they will do it to spouse, dc, family and friends if they can get away with it.

You cannot really win with a narc so best not to try to get pulled into the game at all. Try to take the emotions out of it and not react to provocative behaviour. Narcs want a strong reaction because then they can claim the 'crazy' card. Rise above the games and the smoke and mirrors and allow the narcs actions to speak for themselves.

Protect dc with consistent behaviour, strong boundaries and show them you can manage your emotions even in the face of provocation.

This >
I would send him an email saying that you will explain in honest age appropriate language what is happening and you won’t have your conversations with your children micro-managed by him.

and add
"..and that is my final word in this matter."

Any future emails/messages on this/similar subject
"see my reply dated (x) to your earlier email of (date)" - save this to paste in as required, just do not engage further!

You can compose a similar 'f-off' message to reply to additinal demands of a response about other matters, and keep sending the same reply. He wants engagement, don't indulge him!

Hi all lovely people who have assisted thus far. I chose to ignore the email saying about my answers being wrong- and actually crossing them out. I thought, well if we are 5 weeks in and not one of his children has asked where he is, then maybe we will let this come out naturally... (against what I would do without him on my shoulder...)
So today's reply/ follow up/ whatever: (this has been making me feel like shit all day):

I’ll be frank, anything that you put forward which has been influenced by your counsellor I will immediately reject. They are clearly not unbiased or balanced and I’m afraid they did an unforgivable job supporting you over the last 7 years through your post-natal depression etc. based on the dire results for our children and me. (FWIW I have never had PND, but it was originally thought I did, before the professionals realised I just had a shitty home life, after DS2 aged 5, so inaccurate on many levels) ^And ultimately you turned to a counsellor (and others) rather than having basic healthy conversations and working on a relationship with your husband so I’m not going to be happy with their input.

If your school counsellor has also had input on your drafts then perhaps I need to speak to the headmaster as the bias of your answers and the likely negative impact of using these answers would be unnecessarily damaging to our children.

As you instigated this situation for your own purposes, I await your suggestion of a suitable specialist. It needs to happen quickly as I am already seeing the distraction in our children and in the activities they are doing. That is just scratching the surface. What you have done will change our children’s lives, shaping them in such a negatively unnecessary way. Are you not feeling ashamed of your selfishness?

On a separate but related note, it’s been a while since we last spoke about our historic relationship and some dust has settled in the last few weeks and I think we should have a couple of further sessions to discuss what happened in our relationship. We both previously agreed that analysing how we got here would benefit ourselves and the children in the future. It might be difficult and painful but it would set the record straight. I can see there are varying interpretations. Confusion/disclarity can be resolved. These won’t be mediation sessions as I believe we can manage decision-making amicably ourselves as we have been these last weeks. Are you prepared to have these sessions?^

You've had some good advice on here and you are being very strong. Send this one to the solicitor and do not reply. What was it they were saying up thread? Grey rock? You MUST keep ignoring, we know its hurting you, but you have to push through this.

What has your solicitor advised so far?

I haven't involved the solicitor in these ones about the questions as, initially, it seemed too 'small stuff' (especially with how much it's all costing...!!) But think I may send it to her now. I've sent her ones regarding finance or access etc. She's very 'ignore/ send this legal answer' but to be honest I've not wanted to engage him on a level where I am saying legal stuff as he will 'get me' on it I feel... I just need it to be said by the lawyers and then he can fight them rather than me.
It's just he always refers back to 'best for the children' or 'let's try to be amicable' and of course that's what I want but I don't think I'm the one being confrontational.

I feel like I keep coming back to The 'is he right?' question- now I'm away from the situation it feels easy to minimise it... 'he only locked the children out a few times' 'he only told them he can't bear them 10 times etc'

What a nightmare! I wouldn’t be responding to his emails - you are more than capable of deciding what to say and when to your DC’s. You certainly don’t need any meetings with him to discuss your relationship. I’d be cancelling his visa asap!

If there is a need to reply at all (I wouldn’t) then thank him for his communication and tell him that it has been forwarded to your lawyer. Or continue to not engage. I understand about not wanting to ‘legal language’ reply- as I reckon that would just give him more ammunition. Aknowledge email- if you must and no more. There isn’t a need for any explanation or further opening of communication. You are doing well- be proud of yourself. Have you discussed with lawyer how this separation and divorce will affect his visa? Have you told the relevant authorities you have separated, as if I remember, his visa is dependent on you. Is it fraud not to divulge this, or still legal as long as you are only seperated currently?

You have done the very best thing you could do for the children you must keep remembering that. How is your support army doing?!

As for e-mails I was thinking just to let the solicitor have it for the records rather than ask them to comment or reply?

Yes I was thinking that SD - how is the visa situation OP?

Wow, he's quite a character, ugh. Mmy advice is not to get embroiled in it. I like SD's suggestion of just saying you are forwardin it to your solicitor. I might add something like "as you know I have not had depression" but he wants loads of discussion and contact so the less you say the better although I can see he is trying to build up a picture he is inventing about you perhaps to use in some kind of claim to the children later.

i can't quite remember where you are but I think he moved out and that you are getting divorced. If so none of this back story is relevant and he is just trying to continue lots of contact when you have no obligation to get involved with it or reply at all. The bottom line is you can divorce him whether he likes it or not and it is very likely the children will live with you and that if he wants to save money on lawyers' fees he would be best negotiating the financial side quickly and efficiently so you can both move on.

Your solicitor probably is just having your interests in mind in not responding to all emails just to keep costs reasonable. i would not agreeto meet him to discuss the relationship. In the 7 months when we were divorcing in theory at first mmy ex wanted to know why I was not happy with him so I'd explain a few thing and then he would spend an hour talking about my supposed faults (yet he wanted to stay together) so it was a totally pointless discussion. I had decided to divorce and he had no way to stop that.

The less contact you can have with people like this the better.

Agree with Naice - keep things short, neutral and don't get drawn into discussions and meet ups. In other word, disengagement. Grey rock is your best friend - be very boring.

This is brilliant advice: If they ask why you've split "I wasn't being treated well. Everyone deserves to be treated well, including me, including you" Then change the subject. It's important that you don't deny the poor treatment or pretend you're friends. He may well still be treating them badly, or may do so in the furture, and they need to know it's not ok.

My soon to be ex was also desperate for me to not use a lawyer. He even got members of his family to phone up my father and protest about it. And tried to get my father to pay off his business debts even though he is permanently on holiday - often with his girlfriend!

Don't get drawn in. Stand firm - you have already given him far too many second chances and the way he is communicating with you now says it all. He is a bully and a control freak. Definitely don't discuss the relationship at all. Think with you head not your heart and be prepared for escalation of behaviour as Naice says. Think about how you will deal with this. Buffer up your defences as much as possible with your counsellor, the childrens' counsellors, your lawyer etc. If he is threatening to go in an talk to the head teacher, pre-empt this by making sure your children's class teachers are in the loop over the divorce and the counsellors having raised the possibility of social service intervention. However, try not to antagonize him.

Boring grey rock is your best friend - he will eventually get bored if he gets no strong emotional reactions and move on to find new sources of supply.

Good luck!

OP, I’ve only just read through - with horror; admiration (at your strength and courage) and had to write. My STBXH wasn’t as bad as yours, but the marriage was awful. I went to counselling, told him I wanted out and although he left without too much trouble, he battered me (verbally) for months about me not doing enough to save our marriage; about how selfish I am/was; about how it wasn’t ‘that’ bad to put him through all of it.

Before he moved out, we sat down with children (then 9 and 4) and I said ‘mummy has asked daddy to live somewhere else; we both love you very much and nothing will change that...any questions you have at any time, you can ask either of us’. My 4 year old replied ‘yippee can I live with you mummy’. Since then (over 2 years), neither have asked me a single question. My now 11 year old and I had a conversation and I said that living with Him had started to make me very unhappy, that didn’t make him a bad person and he must have been unhappy, too.

Children are adaptable; I believe mine are much happier now they’re in a positive, joyful environment. They’re more sociable and are achieving more. I am unbelievably happy; I can’t believe I waited so long, I guess I had to get to rock bottom to get out for my own sanity and desire, at 41, to have a life and live it properly. And I am certainly doing that. On top of that, and totally unexpectedly, I have met and fallen in love with a man who is kind, thoughtful, loving, hard working and has taught me what it’s like to be in love.

Please, please, please, please believe me...there will be hard times; you will doubt yourself. Bend the ears of your friends, keep reminding yourself of how to felt living there - don’t go back. Even if you had exaggerated by 50%, you still felt so low and you have done nothing wrong. What advice would you give a friend if she was in your situation? Please don’t let him back in; please trust yourself, your instincts, your judgement. Good luck, you’re made of strong stuff!!

Hope you are ok OPxxxxx

I second that OP - let us know how you are getting on if/when it is safe to do so. X

Hi all, I'm still standing! Sort of... It's 'funny' but he sent a barrage of emails last Monday which covered finances/ holidays/ what and how to tell them/ my house sale- and it just made me laugh. Some corkers were:
#He's 'giving' us the equivalent of £700 a month towards costs- for perspective, my rent (in a cheap place here!) is £2,200 and food about £250 per week. Of course not to mention childcare etc etc.
#He wants the children for 3 weeks alone in the holidays despite never having put them all to bed.
I just laughed at them all. They absolutely didn't affect me. It was surprising.
A slight concern was that he went batshit about a woman from my kids class saying 'sorry to hear about your situation' to him at an event. Firstly I was a bit fucked off that the only person from their classes I'd told blathered about it to him a day later, but then when he sent an email about 'are you playing a game with the kids being on the losing end, or are you just to stupid to know how many people you're blabbing about this to?' and I just thought, I can tell whoever I bloody well like!!!

Then sis in law informed me the reason he'd let me down on some handovers is that he's got a job, and I'm like 'whatevs' about everything! It's great! He earns about 16x what he's 'giving' us a month, he's out of my face, he can't claim he's a stay at home dad... it's great.

He's basically sticking to the routine on access too because now he can't randomly turn up at the house- he has to work!

He's still on my pass as he doesn't get an official employment pass but a type through my visa and so still have that.

I feel calmer than I have for years

The children still not asking. Some tired tantrums which we'd avoided for a while, but no mention of daddy in anything other than a pleasant conversational way. I talk about him too, 'oh daddy loves those biscuits too doesn't he, we will have to save some for him', because I'd always be like that normally... and still nothing from them. They are pretty vile when they come back from him, just find it emotionally stressful I think, but it's only ever a few hours and doing organised sports events, so it's not too bad.

@squishy Although the thought of falling in love makes me shiver a bit, I'm hopeful for the rest of what you've achieved. Really, the calm home life for us is already here, it takes some getting used to though.

The worst I could say- and it sounds weird weird weird so I'm hoping @butterballs9 will come along to sort me out... But it's strangely 'boring'!!! I have freed up so much mental space not worrying about eating on the sofa (dirty!)/ not going to the gym (fat and lazy!)/ etc that I'm a bit about what to do!!

Sounds like you are doing so well. Not reacting is the key and you are really mastering it. I am still struggling with this and in fact have just had a major row with soon to be ex.

I took the grey rock technique too far and he kicked off to get a reaction out of me. He was successful and I know is now gloating over it. In my own mind I am now running through what I did wrong. He made a big thing of going to a major product launch of a friend of ours. In the past it is obviously something that I would have gone to as well and been interested in and lots of our (although particularly his) old friends (from student days) would have been there. (Possibly his ex girlfriend who is definitely in a really dysfunctional marriage and has been desperately unhappy for years.)

I know he was talking about it beforehand partly to dangle a carrot in front of me ( 'look what you are missing'). Maybe I was even invited as well, I don't know. His old crowd must be curious about what really happened. But I deliberately refused to take the bait by not asking a word about it. I suspect he probably wanted me to ask about going but I just don't want to be drawn back in as it would be so easy to drift back for convenience sake. When he came back late (an unwelcome surprise - I thought he would be staying with his girlfriend) he tried to talk but I again didn't take the bait. I guess it means he didn't take the girlfriend which in all honesty would probably have been very awkward.

I think he was really annoyed that I wasn't upset about not being invited (I probably was but it was left up to him to decide whether to invite me or not) and he got his own back this morning by complaining about how the house was so messy and he had to spend hours cleaning it up for a house viewing which was at the last minute, agreed by him. I lost the plot big time as until recently he has pretty much been on holiday with his girlfriend for a year and I have been in charge of everything in the house. Tidying it up for viewings. Dealing with bnb, organising everything.

I'm pretty sure he did this deliberately. He wanted to get a reaction out of me and succeeded. I lost my temper and of course he then threw the 'crazy' card even though he knows that he provoked it all.

I mustn't let this happen again. It is really bad for my mental health and I know that he gloats over having this control over me.

Next time I will pay lip-service to being interested (I AM interested but I just don't want him to cling onto some idea that I might change my mind about drifting back together. I won't change my mind and I don't want to get drawn back in.)

Next time I will make polite noises. Pretend that he is someone I know slightly who I need to be polite to but nothing more. I had become lazy about making sure that I avoided him as much as possible. And he is still hell-bent on stopping me moving on with my own life and being happy. Nothing would upset him more than my meeting someone else and being happy.

He got me off balance because he came back to the house late at night when I thought he would probably be staying with his girlfriend. Unfortunately I was still awake. I felt very annoyed and angry when I heard his car pulling up. I should have made sure I didn't see him. And of course by allowing an early last minute viewing of the house (without my knowing) he caught me off-balance. As usual, a total lack of respect of my boundaries. Didn't ask me whether it was okay. Just complained about the mess. He has nothing good to say about me and is furious that his unpaid servant and money-on-tap machine (sex on tap machine until relatively recently) is about to pull the plug.

He is quite clever - he lulls me into a false sense of security. Then gauges my mood - and goes for the jugular. This awful limbo-land of having to live with someone while going through a divorce really is the pits. In my moment of anger I told him I would take more legal action and get him out of the house. My lawyer has told me I could do this and cite coercive control and emotional abuse but it will cost me more money. In some ways I wish I had just hired a Rottweiler of a lawyer a few years back. I could have pulled the plaster off much more quickly. By adopting a collaborative approach to be reasonable and save money I have just played right into his hands. The more I try to accommodate, the more he takes as a right and the less he respects me. Any money I earn, he tries to get his hands on as soon as possible - still bleating on about how he can't pay his vat bills.

Stay strong, OP. At least you have got him out of the house and it sounds as though you are dealing with it all very well. But be prepared for a counter-attack and it will happen when you least expect it and when you are vulnerable. I am now kicking myself that I fell into this latest trap. We still haven't signed the divorce papers or the settlement and I know he will drag this out for as long as possible and make my life as difficult as possible. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. I just have to keep asking myself: 'Would he be able to behave like this with his clients?' The answer is always no. They come first, I come last. I allowed it to happen of course. Changing habits of a lifetime won't happen overnight. What is really upsetting is that I can't enjoy seeing my now grown up children in the family home as he makes sure that if they are ever there, he will be too. And he plays his 'perfect father' role so they have no idea what he is like with me. I am glad, though, that I have shown my children what they should not put up with in a relationship. Youngest daughter is putting her foot down with bad behaviour now and I'm proud of her. Yeah!

Your penultimate paragraph says it all, OP. By getting him out of the house, you can be yourself and not meet his (impossible) standards. Because soon-to-be ex was complaining about paying the house bills (despite the endless holidays with girlfriend) I offered to take on all bills and take control of the house if he lived primarily elsewhere (girlfriend/family - he has so many places he could go). I know I could easily meet up the bills with airbnb and other initiatives. I would have let him keep all his stuff here (a HUGE issue - he is a hoarder and cannot throw anything away - he would pay for storage otherwise.) I was also going to say he could use the home office as there is a separate entrance so he couldn't then bleat about having to pay for an office or needing storage for work.

Naively, I thought he would be thrilled with the idea of saving money and letting me get on with my life. Not a bit of it. He acted like a toddler whose favourite toy had been taken away and became quite petulant.

Of course, all the stuff about not being able to pay house bills and the vat bill is just to do with controlling me and keeping me in my place. He wants me barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen (metaphorically and literally if it was still possible) worrying about how to pay the bills while he swans around the world being 'Mr Big'.

As you say OP, you are now able to do and be what you want. Soon to be ex loves being able to come back unexpectedly and gloat over 'the mess' or my wine consumption or anything at all that he can beat me over the head with. As it is, he has insisted on turning the house into practically a hotel with rooms rented out left, right and centre (nice little earner and he pockets as much as he can.)

Just can't wait to get divorced and MY OWN FRONT DOOR. Entry by INVITATION ONLY!!

OP - enjoy being bored. You won't be for long I suspect. Just wait for the divorce proceedings. What you are describing is an addiction to trauma bonds. People who grew up in dysfunctional families (many of us) get used to trauma and it starts to feel normal. This is the reason that people make the same mistakes (often) as their parents did when it comes to choosing life partners. I thought I was being clever - I chose a man who would be faithful. He has been (as I do believe his father was as well whereas mine was a philanderer). He is/was also a hands-on father who dotes over his children. All well and good. But in other respects he is remarkably like his own father (narcissistic/hopeless with money/very needy). And I can see huge similarities between both sets of parents. Our mothers were dogsbodies (albeit highly accomplished ones) and fathers acted out their narcissism basking in the glow of a devoted wife and mother. Behind every successful (or even not so successful) man is a woman so they saying goes.

Soon to be ex is beyond furious that I am breaking the family pattern. Too bad. He had a pretty good innings and children who are a credit to -him- me. He still has that glow to bask in, which many do not who chose their wives with less -cunning- care .

OP, make the most of being bored because I can pretty much guarantee that the divorce proceedings (assuming you are going up that route) will be anything but. Narcissists love a really nasty divorce - gives them something to really sink their -fangs- teeth into.....

Keep us posted and enjoy putting your dirty feet up on the sofa and eating with crumbs going everywhere! Ha!