How do you actually divorce a Narcissist?

[mynamechangemyrules]

I am a long time (5+yrs ) lurker in these pages and the advice has helped me in many ways to survive and understand my situation.

I have name changed as some friends know my user name.

I need specific answers as to how to actually 'do the deed' and tell my husband that I want a divorce.

Summary if you want background:
A short summary is my husband is verbally and emotionally abusive to me and to my children. It even feels 'bad' writing that down. But the evidence is right before my eyes.

To me: are you stupid or lazy? I can't work it out? I'm not happy with my children's mother being a fat ugly woman who looks 20 years older than she is, it's disgusting. You disgust me. (FWIW I'm UK 12 and my besties would say I'm alright for 40 ) And all day every day: why are you eating/ doing/ saying that? Questioning questioning and 'retaliating' to simple statements. Me:'I had a tough day at work' H:'Have you finished moaning because i was watching tv' etc etc etc. Honestly that's not even an hour's worth.

'I know you accept mediocrity but I don't. Imagine if our kids ended up like you, fucks sake'

To the DCs (7/5/1): What the fuck is wrong with you? You know you're weird right? All the kids at school will laugh and call you stinky kid (he hates to clean his teeth, he hears this every day) Get this kid away from me I can't fucking bear him. Why do you do that? Are you stupid? Well you must be stupid because you don't listen to what I say.

Pins DC1 up against walls/ floor. Locks DCs 1&2 our of the house.

This is awful. This much I know. For reference I work in education. I know this is bad but my normal has just shifted slightly every time it escalates.

So after the most recent 'major event' (I disagreed on a timing question. He dragged DC1 upstairs by one arm, he told me I disgusted him, he told me we were not allowed to leave the house. He told me if I did he would call the police. Obv I realise they would've told him to fuck off but in the moment my brain doesn't work like that.)
I have been to a lawyer. We live overseas and I have clarified that I am in a strong position:
I work, he doesn't, (he is NOT a SAHD- he is 'job hunting', (he has a lucrative career so doesn't need to work all year) he does nothing with them, we have full time childcarer who has known them all from birth. I come home from work and do dinner bath bed while he watches tv or reads the iPad)
His visa rests on my job
I have plenty of financial security of my own (although he 'manages' it all so I'd have to change passwords etc on accounts)

I have told more people in RL about the situation as if to 'prep' them... They were all like 'of course we'd noticed, he's a knob' which was somehow reassuring.

So... technically I am 'ready'.

But how do I even begin?

Despite all above I think he has very little understanding of where we are with this. As everything is brought back to him all the time- eg 'It ruins my night if I have to physically restrain DC1, I just get so upset' rather than how DC1 is feeling- that I think he would be blown away if I just come out and say I want a divorce.

Do I go straight for that?

Do I book counselling? (Such a thing here would be upwards of £200 a session and hard to find someone of a cultural 'match')

How do I say it?

Should I get the kids out for the day?

How do I time it with basic 'family' events coming up? (Holidays/ special days etc?)

Sorry for the ramble and multiple questions but the gist is HOW????

You’ve got to stick to it. That’s all.

I saw a counsellor who helped me reinforce the boundaries.

It’s a hard slog. Look forward. You will make it happen.

You are doing the right thing. He had his chances. He's clearly a nasty peace of work.
You have already shown incredible strength, you can do this. When you are going through hell, keep going. One day you will looking back at this and realising how far you have come. You will. Work on setting those boundaries. It takes time, but each time you build them up a little more, his power will reduce a little more and so on. Give yourself a huge mental and emotional hug every 30 minutes if you have to. This is the hardest part but you are so much closer to the other side than you were a year ago, a month ago, even yesterday

You don't HAVE to reply to this barrage.
You don't even have to read it all.
He is trying to grind you down, it's worked before so he thinks it will work again.
He's a raging narcissist, you have done the right thing in leaving him. Xx

Agreed with the above, also keep,reminding yourself, it is HIS abusive behaviour that has ingrained this mind set. You are doing brilliantly, just keep taking deep breaths & look to the goal ahead, you & the kids free from this git!

He is trying to consume your time and energy with endless questions. If you attempt to respond to them he will use this information against you as best he can. You don't need to justify your decision - his actions have more than justified it for you. As you say, the children have asked no questions. Given what you have stated about his behaviour, I would imagine they are relieved. I would keep things very short and simple. We are no longer going to live in the same house as Daddy. (You don't have to say why - when they ask questions, you can answer in very simple terms. For instance, we will be happier this way.) Remember the grey rock technique - be really, really boring. He is trying to get you worrying about the impact of a separation to distract you from the real issues.

Like the fact that he was dangerous to live with. File for divorce as soon as possible. Grounds - unreasonable behaviour. Record as much evidence as possible - anything he says/does/writes that is unreasonable keep a record of it.

You get a free half hour to an hour meeting with lawyers initially - it's a really good idea to have quite a few as it helps to see what the issues are and what they say. Plus who you want to work with. I saw a really top divorce lawyer nearly two years ago. She gave me an hour and a half of her time and her assistant took notes of the entire meeting. I didn't use her in the end because I was worried that she would be too adversarial. Big mistake. She told me what the worst case scenario would be cost wise. I flaffed around worrying about how soon to be ex would react and also the money involved and ended up using a 'collaborative' lawyer. This sounds attractive but it only works if there are two people 'collaborating'. Narcissists don't do collaboration so this effectively played into his hands. He used a lawyer who, while purportedly 'collaborative' actually played all the tricks in the books and was down and dirty. We still have not settled and the bills are mounting up. I should have just used the first lawyer I met who knew all the tricks of the trade and would fight fire with fire. His lawyer ran rings around mine (or perhaps they both colluded?) and I was hung out to dry. Past behaviour is a guide to future behaviour. Your STBX has shown his true colours. Expect an escalation of bad behaviour and do everything you can to minimize contact and pull up the barriers around you. TBH you have described physically abusive behaviour towards your children. Social services have been called for less than this (ie: threats). I would not allow unsupervised access for him - please be careful and protect yourself and your children.

If it's possible where you can you insist on him getting a psychiatric assessment prior to having contact with the DC due to his emotional abuse of you and the DC?

You really need to cut him out of all of your lives as much as possible

I had to laugh when he said he’s moving out to support the children.

He wasn’t supporting the children when he had a seven year old child up against a wall, was he?

Get a friend to answer the emails if you’re not up to it. For gods sake don’t engage in his petty discussions. ‘I’ll reject anything...’, ‘Please respond quickly...’. Really? He still thinks he’s in charge!

Dear me, he is trying to suck you back into his game. Don't respond to his relentless babble. It is not normal, you do not need to engage. If you engage, you validate his bullshit. Just ignore him. Show these message to your support and to your lawyer, let them reassure you too. You have done the right thing for you and your children.

He's trying to control.

Your responses (and I understand why you responded) are fair and consistent - you both love the children but you don't love each other. Even if he disagrees with that point then that's for him to say, only he'll do it in a pathetic way, heaping it on.

Hang on in there lass. It will get better over time.

Very interesting post on "Quora" today - how do you a hurt a narcissist.

Well worth a read today. One of the points was to keep up a charade if niceness until you can bring down their pack of cards preferably in court as that's where it really matters

OP, I think you're doing really well. Just a couple of things...

I would caution you against telling your chn things like, "No one did anything wrong". This will very likely contradict their experience and cause them confusion and long-term, ime, lead them away from learning to trust their own feelings and experiences, and towards minimising and normalising abusive behaviour. (They're probably already used to minimising and normalising what's gone on, for their own protection. I believe that such normalisation of abuse can lead to people unconsciously getting into abusive relationships as adults.) I would take advice on this from a child counsellor if you can, not least because they too are going to have to navigate a lifelong relationship with him and will need tools to do that successfully.

I would also question whether you should be putting this in writing to him, given the legalities here. I would take advice from your solicitor about how best to handle this.

Re dealing with a narc. George Simon has written a good book: In Sheep's Clothing, which you might find helpful.

books.google.co.uk/books/about/In_Sheep_s_Clothing.html?id=A1IVQwAACAAJ&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y

He recommends using phrases like, "As you know..." It helps stops the dance between you where he's basically playing you like a violin. Eg. "As you know, you have been abusive to us for many years." Make no mistake, he knows what he's done.

That said, I probably wouldn't be replying to messages like that. Please ask your solicitor how you should deal with it. Maybe you could set up an auto-reply to refer him directly to your solicitor?

I would also get a new phone no and email address for your friends and family to use so you can easily turn him off.

I also agree with a PP about getting a tough lawyer.

Good luck with it all.

I would also question whether you should be putting this in writing to him, given the legalities here. I would take advice from your solicitor about how best to handle this. - this is a really good point. You are doing so well OP, please don't engage in these e-mails - I know people before have said they send everything through their solicitor, also someone upthread said about getting a separate phone and e-mail and ONLY deal with arrangements for pick ups or drop offs etc.

So what's to happen about him staying in the same country as you? Apart from the money he stole does he have any source of income, a job etc?

I just read his points on the page before. I would just not reply. The initial part is fine - two parents who love their children agreeing to handle things with the children appropriately. I would never lie to a child however (and mine were older and asked me to get rid of their father as he lost his temper, hit the walls and was pretty nasty at times to them and to me so nothing really had to be explained about it - they could see perfectly well daddy was awful so mummy made daddy leave and daddy got what was coming to him and that if you behave like that you can't expect to stay in a marriage, not that any of that had to be said, it was self evident and I have made sure I also mention his good points to them in the year since too - harder worker, reliable etc).

No one could reasonably expect someone to go through and answer the exact answers to be given to all those tons of questions. Also as the chldren have not asked in this case why the father isn't there there is no need to anyway to have agreed answers. Just telling him - don't worry, I will make sure I give the children appropriate answers would be fine in my book.

Also I am a morning person like you. I didn't even like my daughter's 10pm call last night as I was gearing up for bed. Just turn off your phone. My mobile stays downstairs when I go up to bed. If there is a real dire family emergency in the night people can call the home landline.

Stop answering, communicating with him on any level other than child contact.
You are playing a very dangerous game with this manipulative narcissist
who believes that the relationship will be over when he says it over!!

He's trying to reinvent the past - erasing his awful behaviour - and making you the one to do so!
This is a very common tactic - in essence he's attempting to make you gaslight your own children? (They know what went down and he's trying to make you tell them differently? )
Gah. No. Just reply that you will speak to the children in an age appropriate manner, respectful of their emotional wellbeing, if they ask any of the questions. The only way in which the children will think negatively of him is because of his actions.

I don't want to be dramatic, but this thread keeps me going, I think because irl people are more black and white and have no experience of what I'm talking about.

He's replied;

This morning, DC1 was pressing me to answer the question of where I slept last night. He asked me 4 times and I was eventually able to divert his attention to something else without giving a straight answer. This is all understandable given that I picked him up from the house at 7.45am. This is also after him asking me to sleep at home last night. It will be difficult to put this off much longer. In fact just at bedtime this evening both boys asked the same question again. Although for a period I might be able to explain I’m staying in a holiday house like they did (which I did actually hint at this evening) - I don’t mind them coming to see where I’m staying and this may soften the hard truth at some point in the near future. But either way we need robust narrative ASAP.

Given the pressure to have clear answers, you previously mentioned seeing someone to help us craft answers and as I have said below, this makes sense to me and is clearly required given some of the proposed answers that you gave. It is obvious that it is important to you that it is made clear what role you had in the end situation and how you feel from your angle. But that it really isn’t important to the children at this point and will just highlight bitterness that you may have, which is quite clear in your drafts below and quite honestly should be toned down.

As an aside, whilst it is clear now that an emphasis for you is that others see the situation from your angle and how you are doing something about it, to have this at your advantage going forward, it is important to remember that there are two in a relationship; we both know how we got to where we are now and I will unfortunately assure that your lack of responsibility taken and ignorance shown in our relationship for many years will eat away at you for the rest of your life, way longer than how it all appears now.

But back to the most important thing, the children - I still see it as important that we quickly consult a specialist on how to deal with the children as neither you or I are experienced or are an expert in how to do this effectively. But see my responses to your drafts below in green, to indicate where I am coming from, to provide more balance and rounded answers.

I only include one 'corrected' response. He's done a strike through on them all and written his own underneath.

Daddy – living arrangements

Why isn’t daddy living with us anymore?

Did daddy decide to leave us/move out? Why?

Will daddy ever live with us again?/Is daddy coming into our house again? Will daddy move away?

Can daddy come and stay with us sometimes? Will mummy and daddy have dinner with us/ do stuff with us together?

Can I live with daddy?

Can I stay at daddy’s house?

-Daddy is not living with us because Mummy has asked him to live in another house. Mummy doesn't want to live in the same house as Daddy. We both love you very much and would never leave you. Sometimes, we can all go out together, but we are not going to live in the same house again.-

STBXH amendment- Mummy and Daddy have discussed it and agreed that we should live in different houses. We are still friends and are important to each other but don’t feel like husband and wife anymore. But we both are your Mummy and Daddy and always will be. We will still do some things together but most importantly we will work together as team to make sure you are happy and looked after forever. You can stay with mummy and daddy at different times, this is all ok but we’ll make sure that you are happy where you live and have all the energy you need for school, sports, music and having fun.

Can't edit in my phone but the first response is all crossed out by him on the email.

myname My ex was like this, tried to tangle me in knots with words.
You do not need to answer any of his PA crap.
You have the option to ignore.
Do not let him dictate how things will go, or what you tell the kids. You can reply as you wish to your children in a manner you think fit for the moment & appropriate to the question.
HE does not get to dictate to you - he's done it for years but you are breaking that habit of agreeing with him, stay strong you can do this!

Bollocks to the lot of it. Just go grey rock.

He is still trying to control you, bollocks to you ever doing anything as a family ever again!!!

Personally I think you should explain to the DC that you have insisted that He leaves because the way he treated you was very unkind and made you very unhappy but he is their Dad and it's ok that they love him and want to spend time with them.

I suspect he wants to trip you up especially if you Say they will stay him and he ends up being deported... he will bad mouth you to the DC.

If you feel you must respond I would just stick with "I will explain divorce in Age appropriate language to the DC"

He is worried thAt you will be truthful with them!

It's exhausting reading. I think you need to find a way to put a stop to this asap. If it was me, not knowing what to do for the best, I would probably reply with something like, "I am referring these issues to my solicitor now for advice regarding the best way forwards. OP" Whatever polite phrase I used, (maybe ask your lawyer friend?) I would keep repeating it, possibly built into an auto-reply. I think it would be good to get advice on how to handle this asap.

we both know how we got to where we are now and I will unfortunately assure that your lack of responsibility taken and ignorance shown in our relationship for many years will eat away at you for the rest of your life

He really is a complete tosser, isn't he?! The good news is that this isn't down to him (though he might think it is). These are games he's playing to get at you because he knows he can. Turn it into narc bingo in your mind and it might help to take the sting out and maybe even put a bit of humour in it for you.

If you have an ace up your sleeve you might want to think about using it (eg visa - ask your hot lawyer what she/he thinks). I say this because I was relentlessly targeted by a narc who only stopped when I threatened her career (by threatening to report her). I'd kept all her messages and she knew I could do it. At the moment, I think he thinks he's got you on the wire.

Personally I think you should explain to the DC that you have insisted that He leaves because the way he treated you was very unkind and made you very unhappy but he is their Dad and it's ok that they love him and want to spend time with them.

Sounds good to me! I would also speak to them about the way he treated them and that, as their mum, you couldn't allow it to continue.

I didn't realise you had moved out. Are the children with their father and you moved out of the family home? That isn't always a great idea if there is a risk he will remove you from their lives and get house and children after divorce. or has he moved out? Sorry I haven't read that closely above.