How do you actually divorce a Narcissist?

[mynamechangemyrules]

I am a long time (5+yrs ) lurker in these pages and the advice has helped me in many ways to survive and understand my situation.

I have name changed as some friends know my user name.

I need specific answers as to how to actually 'do the deed' and tell my husband that I want a divorce.

Summary if you want background:
A short summary is my husband is verbally and emotionally abusive to me and to my children. It even feels 'bad' writing that down. But the evidence is right before my eyes.

To me: are you stupid or lazy? I can't work it out? I'm not happy with my children's mother being a fat ugly woman who looks 20 years older than she is, it's disgusting. You disgust me. (FWIW I'm UK 12 and my besties would say I'm alright for 40 ) And all day every day: why are you eating/ doing/ saying that? Questioning questioning and 'retaliating' to simple statements. Me:'I had a tough day at work' H:'Have you finished moaning because i was watching tv' etc etc etc. Honestly that's not even an hour's worth.

'I know you accept mediocrity but I don't. Imagine if our kids ended up like you, fucks sake'

To the DCs (7/5/1): What the fuck is wrong with you? You know you're weird right? All the kids at school will laugh and call you stinky kid (he hates to clean his teeth, he hears this every day) Get this kid away from me I can't fucking bear him. Why do you do that? Are you stupid? Well you must be stupid because you don't listen to what I say.

Pins DC1 up against walls/ floor. Locks DCs 1&2 our of the house.

This is awful. This much I know. For reference I work in education. I know this is bad but my normal has just shifted slightly every time it escalates.

So after the most recent 'major event' (I disagreed on a timing question. He dragged DC1 upstairs by one arm, he told me I disgusted him, he told me we were not allowed to leave the house. He told me if I did he would call the police. Obv I realise they would've told him to fuck off but in the moment my brain doesn't work like that.)
I have been to a lawyer. We live overseas and I have clarified that I am in a strong position:
I work, he doesn't, (he is NOT a SAHD- he is 'job hunting', (he has a lucrative career so doesn't need to work all year) he does nothing with them, we have full time childcarer who has known them all from birth. I come home from work and do dinner bath bed while he watches tv or reads the iPad)
His visa rests on my job
I have plenty of financial security of my own (although he 'manages' it all so I'd have to change passwords etc on accounts)

I have told more people in RL about the situation as if to 'prep' them... They were all like 'of course we'd noticed, he's a knob' which was somehow reassuring.

So... technically I am 'ready'.

But how do I even begin?

Despite all above I think he has very little understanding of where we are with this. As everything is brought back to him all the time- eg 'It ruins my night if I have to physically restrain DC1, I just get so upset' rather than how DC1 is feeling- that I think he would be blown away if I just come out and say I want a divorce.

Do I go straight for that?

Do I book counselling? (Such a thing here would be upwards of £200 a session and hard to find someone of a cultural 'match')

How do I say it?

Should I get the kids out for the day?

How do I time it with basic 'family' events coming up? (Holidays/ special days etc?)

Sorry for the ramble and multiple questions but the gist is HOW????

Hard to answer that without the background.

Treat it as a negotiation. Take all emotion out. Facts only. Don't take anything personally (not easy I know!).

FWIW, he has the car and won't return it and he's unemployed. So if he wanted max time with dc then he could pick him up at 3.25pm.

And background is- he started asking about whether they (dcs1&2) will get the school bus 3 days ago, as I had said 3 weeks ago that it would stop this term. I have repeatedly answered this in the negative. He is waiting until past 10pm the night before school commences to go in on the discussion like this.

Just so you know you can see his picture and name in those pics, maybe ask to have them deleted..

Does he want to do the school run?

I would honestly take over everything/outsource what you can even though it's expensive rely on him for nothing. Basically grey rock him in every way.

He can have limited contact with the DC (as little as possible as he is damaging them) and nothing else, he isn't nor ever has been their main carer.

Yes, the withdrawn post was screenshots where he's going on about a decision made earlier to stop them going on buses. He's being difficult but it's the being difficult late at night that stresses me out. It's 11.30pm here and I'm wired thinking of what to reply to his statements about my coping skills and communication. He knows I am I morning person and so worn out at night.

Can you just ask one of your WhatsApp ladies to write a reply for you?

You also need as a pp said to stop relying on him so that he can't exert control/influence over you via dc care arrangements. Keep going op you can do it xxx

I read the text messages before they were removed - there was nothing in them that requires any reply. You don't need to respond to the questions about 'are you coping' or querying your communication style. Grey rock, if necessary just repeat the information that you need to get across (the DCs are no longer going to be getting the bus). I would get yourself another phone and use that number only for making arrangements re the kids, have it switched off most of the time. If you respond to his other nonsense texts then you allow him to control you again. He's looking for a way into your head, don't give him one - or at least, make it look like he isn't getting to you. Fake it till you make it.

I agree with pony. Grey wall. Just give him the details he needs, which isn't War & Peace.

If he knows evenings aren't your time and he's doing it to be an arse, respond in the morning.

What you are in the process of doing is incredibly challenging. I think you probably have to expect two steps forward and one step back or even vice-versa. You are having to change patterns of behaviour that are deeply embedded. As you can't change him you have to change yourself. Carefully consider all your interactions with him. You need to be able to apply reverse psychology. People get into relationships sometimes to try to heal old wounds from their early childhood. Carefully consider how this might apply to both yourself and your husband. You can then start to unpick the patterns of behaviour that alllowed this in the first place. My soon to be ex is ramping up the behaviour with all sorts of threats and intimidation....really keep your wits about you. Best to limit interaction as much as possible and always think before you do so. It's so difficult to accept that a person you thought you were close to can behave in such devious, manipulative ways but the evidence as you said yourself is before your very own eyes. My soon to be ex was very subtle...there were a few red flags at the beginning but not many. I should have trusted my instincts. Something was not quite right. I didn't know enough about his past and his background. Emotionally we were not on the same wavelength or intellectually and I ignored this. Tune heavily into your feelings - when you find yourself being triggered, pull back and protect yourself. Get a friend or family member to read texts/emails. Best of all have a bespoke email account/phone just for him.

My soon to be ex accuses me of doing what he himself is doing or has done. Therefore I can turn nearly every accusation on its head. He also tends to lie about everything - I can almost guarantee that if I revers what he says, I get the truth.

When I unfortunately encountered him after he returned from the last holiday I couldn't help getting annoyed with him and we were both shouting at each other. I just had to say how unreasonable I felt he was being. Of course he is very angry that I have pulled the comfortable rug from around him. What was good was that, despite his deliberately provocative behaviour, I found I recovered more quickly. I was less upset that I would have been previously and even found myself smiling at one point as what he was saying was so stupid.

I'm now really going to try to minimize contact. If I find myself wanting to get angry, I will find a way to diffuse the anger and remove myself from the scene. The magic word is 'disengage'. The grey rock technique is really helpful. Become dull and boring and monotone. Narcissists like shiny, colourful things and people to see their reflection in. Stop reacting to him. Have very clear boundaries around when he is with the children. Keep up your support system. You need a really wide number of people around you to keep life feeling normal.

I read halfway and there is some great advice and fabulous and wise posts.
I don't believe it is advisable to have joint counselling where one party is abusive. Joint counselling is NOT the way forward. You might find it helpful to have support and encouragement via solo counselling or maybe prefer to keep posting here and save the money towards a good lawyer!

Totally agree about joint counselling. It backfires with a narcissist. I find it very telling that he wanted it to be joint - my soon to be ex was the same. Wouldn't have individual counselling. They turn the whole session into them and how they are so upset and worried about you and how the children will react. I used to leave the joint counselling sessions in hysterics. Truly hideous experience. I remember wanting to jump out of the window. He also reacted in a similar way to that which you are describing. He told everyone I was nuts and was desperate to medicalize me. He got my father and brother on board for quite some time so they would have nice little confabs behind my back about how deranged I was. Plus he would work hard on getting money out of my father without me seeing it. And then spend it on things like expensive cars while pretending it was to pay off the mortgage. I swear he would have been quite happy with me sleeping in a car and getting a menial job. I think he would happily ensconce his girlfriend in the house and have me in a hostel somewhere. He told me he thought he 'could have done better' out of the divorce settlement. He will effectively write off all his debts and comes away with half the house (of which all the equity is mine) his savings and nearly all his pension. Plus his debts cleared. I paid for all the children's University accommodation plus anything to do with education and childcare. And he 'could have done better'? Well, I suppose he would have got everything, which is what he would have wanted. Being reasonable with a narc doesn't work. Cut out all emotion and feeling. Go grey rock. Don't react to provocation.

If he is just repeating the same questions over and over, either don't reply or just reply "please refer to our previous conversation ".

STBXH was constantly messaging and checking arrangements. I told him l don't do wife work anymore and he needs to start remembering his own stuff.

You don't have to message him back. Give him the information once at a convenient time for you and then ignore him.

What you are experiencing is normal for being battered verbally emotionally and psychologically - he is deliberately making life difficult for you - turn off the phone at 7 -they are like dogs - you have to be boss and train him by setting and maintaining boundaries - email him once and notify him your phone will be off from 7 to 7 so to make arrangements for the next day at least 36 hours before - he won't of course but keep turning the phone off and saying no - hard when you are in his firing line - get another SIM card and only give number to trusted friends and load old sim twice a day - am n pm - that way you don't to get to be battered constantly

Good luck

myboysandI I'm going to keep that reply for when we live in separate houses I don't do wifework anymore

Ha! I like the 'wifework' bit. My soon to be ex's communication strategies are really weird too. He will profess that he 'wants to talk' but then if he hears anything he doesn't like he gets angry and/or annoyed or states he is 'very worried about me'. He will initiate conversations about contentious issues just as I am about to leave to go somewhere, or when there are other things to deal with, so I end up being stressed and confused. Yet when there is time and the opportunity for communication, he will leave as soon as I start addressing issues that he doesn't want to have to deal with. It's all 'crazy-making' stuff and doesn't respect boundaries of time or space. He doesn't really 'want to talk', he just wants to hear what he wants to hear. And if it's not what he wants to hear then he is out of there. Setting boundaries is really important as wfkaw states. Then maintain them. I cannot emphasize how important it is to have a very wide network of friends/acquaintances/support systems. The bigger all the support systems are, the smaller the impact of the narcissistic spouse. Don't allow him to isolate you at all - keep friends, family, neighbours, anyone orbiting around you and your children.

What is that expression? It takes a whole village to raise a child - remember that. There is safety in numbers.

https://greatist.com/live/dealing-with-a-toxic-person?utmsource=CM&utmmmedium=email&utmcontent=story11cta&utmcampaign=dailyynewsletter2018-04-177testB_20160817

huge post alert!!!

So this is one (of many!!) email thread going on at the moment, starting with STBXH's response last night, so maybe start at the bottom if you can be arsed reading it all!!

(FWIW- 1. None of the children have mentioned anything! Not a single 'where is daddy? Why isn't daddy staying here? Why aren't we at 'home'? Which I think is partial proof of my decision being correct but anyway...

1. I did consult professionals- as well as me being an early years teacher and my mum and sister being mental health professionals- I also asked the school counsellor and my therapist for views)

--

I disagree with some responses and am not confident in the use of the remaining responses. I would like to discuss this further with someone who is expertly skilled and/or has professional insight into these situations.

To be clear, at this point, in no way am I comfortable with you or I using these responses.
(His bold!)
STBXH

From: mynamechange
Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2018 9:37 PM
To: STBXH
Subject: Re: Children - please respond

STBXH

I have gone through the list of questions and grouped those where the question's focus is similar. I believe we should tell them in very simple terms what has happened and that the focus remains that we love them and always will.

Daddy – living arrangements

Why isn’t daddy living with us anymore?

Did daddy decide to leave us/move out? Why?

Will daddy ever live with us again?/Is daddy coming into our house again? Will daddy move away?

Can daddy come and stay with us sometimes? Will mummy and daddy have dinner with us/ do stuff with us together?

Can I live with daddy?

Can I stay at daddy’s house?

Daddy is not living with us because Mummy has asked him to live in another house. Mummy doesn't want to live in the same house as Daddy. We both love you very much and would never leave you. Sometimes, we can all go out together, but we are not going to live in the same house again.

Daddy – love/reassurance

Do you still love daddy? Don’t you love daddy anymore? -

Why don’t you love daddy anymore?

Will you love daddy again?

Doesn’t daddy love us anymore?

Doesn’t daddy like us anymore?

Mummy is still friends with Daddy, but she doesn't love him anymore. Daddy and Mummy both love you very much.

Mummy – love/reassurance

Do you still love mummy? Don’t you love mummy anymore?

Why don’t you love mummy anymore?

Will you love mummy again?

Will mummy leave us too?

Mummy and Daddy don't love each other any more, but we both love you all very much. That will never change.

Reasons

What did daddy do wrong?

What did mummy do wrong?

Nobody did anything wrong.

Daily life – future arrangements

How much will I see daddy?

Will daddy come to our birthdays?

Will daddy come on holiday with us?

What do I tell my friends?

Will we be leaving Current country?

What will change in our lives?

Will I get a new daddy?

Is this my fault?/What did I do wrong?

You are going to be cared for and loved by mummy and daddy forever. Mummy and Daddy will both see you at school times and in the holidays. Nobody did anything wrong, this is not your fault and we both love you very much.

These questions/ statements below are considerations but not things that need an answer as yet – they are one possible reaction but are to be dealt with only if they happen. If the answers to the questions above are communicated in a sensitive and clear way, these reactions should be avoided.

What if the child says:

I hate you for doing this to us?

I hate daddy for leaving.

I don’t want to see daddy anymore as I’m mad with him for leaving.

My life is terrible, I hate it.

Mynamechange

On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 11:15 AM, STBXH wrote:

I have listed some questions that we may be asked by the children given the situation. You can add more if you think of any. I think it’s appropriate that you draft the responses in the first instance as you instigated this situation. I will then review them and please note I will reject anything that I don’t agree with or if it means I am not telling the truth to the children. We should then try to maintain consistency in the use of the answers between us. Please respond quickly as I sense the storm is brewing, especially as my parents are leaving today and things will start to be more routine and clearer to the kids.

Btw it was very unpleasant typing these questions. I hope it hits you again what you personally have done and are doing. You should also know that it is making everyone very sad and sickened.

Why isn’t daddy living with us anymore?
Do you still love daddy?
Do you still love mummy?
Don’t you love daddy anymore?
Don’t you love mummy anymore?
Why don’t you love daddy anymore?
Why don’t you love mummy anymore?
Did daddy decide to leave us?
Did daddy decide to move out?
Why did he move out?
Will daddy ever live with us again?
Will you love daddy again?
Will you love mummy again?
Doesn’t daddy love us anymore?
Doesn’t daddy like us anymore?
Can daddy come and stay with us sometimes?
Will mummy and daddy have dinner with us?
Will mummy and daddy do stuff with us together?
Is daddy coming into our house again?
Why did daddy move out?
What did daddy do wrong?
What did mummy do wrong?
Will daddy move away?
How much will I see daddy?
Will mummy leave us too?
Will daddy come to our birthdays?
Will daddy come on holiday with us?
Can I live with daddy?
Can I stay at daddy’s house?
What do I tell my friends?
Is this my fault?
What did I do wrong?
Will we be leaving Singapore?
What will change in our lives?
Will I get a new daddy?

What if the child says:
I hate you for doing this to us?
I hate daddy for leaving.
I don’t want to see daddy anymore as I’m mad with him for leaving.
My life is terrible, I hate it

I would just reply that you cannot control what he says to the DC but you are confident that the responses you have outlined are correct and age appropriate and you are not prepared to discuss it further.

You massively need to grey rock him

Wow - has he no suggestions himself for what to tell dc?

I expect that I need to do this list with my H too

Ignore his attempts to engage you in an ongoing dialogue that just gives him more opportunity to whittle away at you.

Absolute minimal contact, facts about the children re access etc otherwise ignore ignore.
Set up an email folder you can divert the outpouring to but only read when feeling strong.

Boundaries! Boundaries! Boundaries!

I predict he will turn on the charm, because he doesn’t think you are serious. When that doesn’t work, he may get angry.

You HAVE to stick to your guns.
You HAVE to remember you are role modelling adult relationships for your children.

It’s a long bumpy road for a while, but it works out ok. Centre your children, and they will be ok.

Best of luck.

Oh, what did you do about the money he stole?

The hard thing is, and I'm aware I'm repeating myself here but it's how my mind is going... But feeling a bit like you've let the side down/ haven't tried hard enough/ should've given him more chances to change/ blah di blah. I talk myself out of it but it's literally a 30minute cycle all bloody day. It's draining!

And the bloody paperwork!! How am I supposed to work with this amount of crap to do?!