So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying?

[Pan2]

As a major on line source of voice via MN do we have a dadsnet view at all?

We need to do more for the next generation. And perhaps that can start by recognising and accepting we are on the pyramid instead of focusing on the apex and namalting

It's wrong?

Yes to the not accepting the namalting thing, and certainly NOT taking anything personally. Any focus on male behaviour is universal, not aimed at the thin-skinned.

@SkedaddIe

We need to do more for the next generation. And perhaps that can start by recognising and accepting we are on the pyramid instead of focusing on the apex and namalting

Could you explain what the pyramid is, please?

Well, we are going to need input from people who do it. Anyone want to talk about their actions and reasoning?

Wow! There's an eye opener!

I've just realised I don't have the language available to discuss this with other men.

Where do we start?

@JustSpeculation

Wow! There's an eye opener!

I've just realised I don't have the language available to discuss this with other men.

Where do we start?

We need input from those who do it. This is the perfect medium. It's anonymous. You can name change if you need to. What makes one bloke do it, and his brother father, friend, neighbour, colleague, not do it?

I'm not sure that is the issue. We know that there is a certain number of men who commit acts of violence against women, and we know that others, we hope a very large majority, don't. And we know that women aren't in a position to tell which is which until the violence happens. We know there are some things we can do, like not walking up close behind women, not being creepy, not staring and so on. We know all this because they've told us. We're not psychologists or police officers (at least I'm not), and we're not qualified to deal with whatever urges to violence some men may have. And, quite honestly, I have no desire to read posts about why men attack women. I think I want to know what I can do to not worry women in my own behaviour, and what I can, and should, do if I witness anything. I'm not a fighter. I haven't hit anyone since a fight at school when I was about 13. That was literally half a century ago. So what do I do?

@JustSpeculation

I'm not sure that is the issue. We know that there is a certain number of men who commit acts of violence against women, and we know that others, we hope a very large majority, don't. And we know that women aren't in a position to tell which is which until the violence happens. We know there are some things we can do, like not walking up close behind women, not being creepy, not staring and so on. We know all this because they've told us. We're not psychologists or police officers (at least I'm not), and we're not qualified to deal with whatever urges to violence some men may have. And, quite honestly, I have no desire to read posts about why men attack women. I think I want to know what I can do to not worry women in my own behaviour, and what I can, and should, do if I witness anything. I'm not a fighter. I haven't hit anyone since a fight at school when I was about 13. That was literally half a century ago. So what do I do?

But unless you get it from the horse's mouth, it's just a talking shop and pseudo-babble. Do we all think we are the fabled good guys? We all know not to be creepy or inappropriate. Do we want to discuss those behaviours as well, or limit this chat specifically to violence?

This behaviour is widespread, almost ubiquitous. It's so prevalent that some men here must have done it at some point. I'm not trying to be antagonistic or accusatory. I'd like to get it out in the open and discuss non-judgementally, if possible. So if someone does come forward, can we not just lay into them please? Similarly, if someone has witnessed it from someone close to them, did you ever get the chance to discuss it?

oh I agree we don't need the psycho-babble of the fabled good guys, nothing more pointless.

fwiw this sudden epidemic of concern for VAWG shouldn't be going away any time soon so we can wander in and out of this chat for quite a while.

I think it's quite complex, from the global male domination of most things, down to individual psychology that allows the violence and intimidation to happen.
And its messy - I have a brother who is a violent, racist, domestic violencer (at least last time I saw him 20 years ago) and I put me at the other end of any such spectrum. We both had the same upbringing, same opportunities, same school education etc, but turned out very different. Weird isn't it?

@Pan2

oh I agree we don't need the psycho-babble of the fabled good guys, nothing more pointless.

fwiw this sudden epidemic of concern for VAWG shouldn't be going away any time soon so we can wander in and out of this chat for quite a while.

I think it's quite complex, from the global male domination of most things, down to individual psychology that allows the violence and intimidation to happen.
And its messy - I have a brother who is a violent, racist, domestic violencer (at least last time I saw him 20 years ago) and I put me at the other end of any such spectrum. We both had the same upbringing, same opportunities, same school education etc, but turned out very different. Weird isn't it?

It is weird, and fascinating. I don't want this to turn into a personal inquisition, Pan, but do you or your family remember when differences in behaviour between you and your brother first became noticeable? Were your friend groups markedly different? It's the whole nature vs nurture debate at the heart of this I guess.

Pan and Jurgen, you make sense. But I'm wary of asking people to post anonymously about why they beat up women. I think you could be asking for anything from self justification to sadistic fantasies, and I'm not into that. It wouldn't help. The thread would end up like the swiss cheese threads on the FWR board.

It might be interesting to ask men why and how they stopped, though. Talking about the learning experiences they went through. Without resorting to psychobabble and planetary politics.

But most of all, right now, I'd like to hear from other men about what they do to avoid making women feel threatened and unsafe in public.

But most of all, right now, I'd like to hear from other men about what they do to avoid making women feel threatened and unsafe in public.

Cross the road, give space, take a different route if possible, ignore them.

Beyond that, what am I going to do? I'm no-ones protector just because I was born with a Y chromosome, no obligation to get punched or knifed on someone else's behalf. Only obligation is for me, personally, to not be a dick. That's where my duty begins and ends.

But most of all, right now, I'd like to hear from other men about what they do to avoid making women feel threatened and unsafe in public.

Happy do that, Just. Personally, I treat women the same as men in all walks of life, public and professional. I never make small talk with strangers. That's why all the 'just smile love...' thing grinds my gears. I don't shout out of the car window because a guy has a nice bum. I don't compliment men on a smart suit or hair cut. If I'm introduced to a stranger, it's a nod of the head or a handshake. I think most of us are aware of the situation at night if you are walking near a woman. I am a slow walker, which drives my wife mad, but most people will soon be way ahead of me.

Beyond that, what am I going to do? I'm no-ones protector just because I was born with a Y chromosome, no obligation to get punched or knifed on someone else's behalf. Only obligation is for me, personally, to not be a dick. That's where my duty begins and ends.

This is also perfectly valid. My mate is a copper who has been called out to many a domestic row. The number of times he's intervened, only to have the woman turn on him for 'starting on her fellah', also makes me wary of such a situation. Sometimes, you can't win.

Pan2

"Yes to the not accepting the namalting thing, and certainly NOT taking anything personally. Any focus on male behaviour is universal, not aimed at the thin-skinned."

I think this is really important. Imagine if you were in the company of a woman who had suffered domestic abuse or worse and threw tha NAMALT grenade out there.
That IMHO would show a huge lack of empathy.
Years ago I had a mate (no longer a mate), who suddenly anounced that he was getting married, despite the fact that we didn't even know he was in a relationship. We hadn't met his OH which seemed a bit strange as he had met our DW's, although he never had a conversation with any of them. A month later he turned up with his O/H and a baby. Apparently, the only reason he was getting married and fathering a child, was to keep his bloodline going. Then when she went back to work, he would let her walk the three miles back home, late at night, instead of picking her up.
It isn't just physical violence, it is emotional violence, coercion, imtimidation.
I called my mate out on his behaviour and he didn't like it, said it was none of my business. As far as I am concerned it became my business once he started bragging about it.
Maybe if we start to challenge other blokes on their behaviour more, then it will have a positive effect on their treatment of women.

All I can say to the above, at the moment is, me too. I'm of an age where I think I present less of a threat myself - I'm not walking with a stick, but younger people have started offering me seats on the bus. Interestingly, more young women than young men. Do women notice things more? Not all women, but those who do certainly tend to be women.

But there is a feeling around that male violence is a men's problem, and that men have a responsibility for calling out bad male behaviour. I'm wondering what form that calling out might take. Bearing in mind that no one has an obligation to end up wrapped around a post box.

@andyoldlabour

We don't often call out like that because we feel it's none of our business. We criticise people behind their backs, but not to their faces. It takes courage to do that. People generally don't want to get slapped down for being interfering, sanctimonious and preachy. You don't want to sound like Owen Jones on a pompous rant. So what kind of language can you use to avoid that? Is there a way of doing it without being confrontational (I'm a confrontation avoider...total coward).

JustSpeculation

Unless there was obvious violence involved, I would not confront a complete stranger, we all know what could happen then. I think it is relatively easy to have a word with a mate, wthout going into full rant mode.
My DW and I are in our early sixties, so our days of pubbing and clubbing are far behind us, we live in a nice, modernish village where the majority of people exchange pleasantries with each other.
However, outside of our relatively sedate lifestyle, there is a whole lot of unpleasant behaviour which is seen as acceptable. I think the police, judiciary and the government have to co-ordinate a response to increased violence and digital crime towards girls and women - pornified sex, choking, revenge porn etc - none of which was around in my youth. Also, the move to normalise sex work, a trade which involves slavery and extortion and blackmail.

[quote JustSpeculation]@andyoldlabour

We don't often call out like that because we feel it's none of our business. We criticise people behind their backs, but not to their faces. It takes courage to do that. People generally don't want to get slapped down for being interfering, sanctimonious and preachy. You don't want to sound like Owen Jones on a pompous rant. So what kind of language can you use to avoid that? Is there a way of doing it without being confrontational (I'm a confrontation avoider...total coward).[/quote]
Is it the case that we tend to mix with people similar to ourselves? If we don't brag/chat shit/catcall, our acquaintances don't either. I know blokes hang out of vans and wolf whistle and shout at women. I've been told by friends that they've been subjected to it. But in 50 years, I've never been in a vehicle where someone has done it. I've never been in a pub where a friend has slapped a passing arse. That sounds like I'm in denial, but it's just how it is. So what if we have these self regulating divisions between those who do these things, and those who don't? I think this low level of harassment leads to the bigger stuff, but if it's self contained, what are you supposed to do? Genuine questions, not rhetorical.

I think there's a group of men like this. A small group that are nasty / aggressive and the worst of society.

Take that group out and you'd probably find most men to be only more aggressive than women in the sense that males are generally (i.e. not violent just in their general demeanour etc).

I think we also overlook a lot of things men in society simply are expected to put up with, loss of kids / home / status etc after a separation and the downward spiral that can come with it along with the lack of support. Which is actually quite frightening if you've been through this kind of thing.

Male suicides are much higher there must be reasons. In this age of equality I'd like to see more research into this.

I don't think there's much appetite for men's issues as men are generally seen to be better off in society.

JurgenKloppsCat

Exactly right. Most of the guys I have known, have in public behaved extremely well towards women. The kind of knuckledragging misogynists, who insult and assault women, would probably regard us as weird wimps for not indulging in the same behaviour.
I think some institutions almost encourage this behaviour - police, army etc. You only have to read up about the number of rapes and assaults by US military personnel abroad, particularly the Phillipines. Back in 2005, I was in Carlsbad, California on a business trip and went out to a local bar one night with colleagues. The bar was packed full of marines from nearby Camp Pendleton, who were due to leave for Iraq. They were boasting of "shooting up ragheads", "killing Arabs". God knows what their behaviour would be like around women.
Maybe I should have intervened and asked them to change their ways

Maybe I should have intervened and asked them to change their ways

Well, I can see complications may arise there! But does this cross into the problems that we are discussing? Our society has always required a steady stream of men willing to go into combat. If you have to have a ready supply of such people, then you have to teach them that aggression and violence are desirable. So you let them read books and comics, you let them watch films and documentaries, you teach them about the bravery and heroism. And then you get them in the pub, or at the football...

Of course, you don't want that violence to spill over. And I'd estimate that most can control themselves. But you are also going to get people of a certain disposition attracted to a career where they can let rip, and be praised for it. To a lesser degree, you can get problem personality types in the police, where power and authority comes with the territory. Again, NAPALT.

Stout01 made some good points. The one bit I'm not sure about is that it's small a group of problematic men. It seems too widespread. I think the ultra violent types might be relatively few, but the low level harassment seems too widespread for us to dismiss it as a few idiots. I'd like women to be able to go about their business without the small, shitty stuff being ever present. I'd like to see prosecutions for someone who thinks shouting 'nice tits' is acceptable. I don't know how you'd implement it though. But that old story about New York cleaning up crime by prosecuting the small offences nags away at my brain.

I think society is going the right way. It's a good point that less than 100 years ago men were sent off to Europe to die in large numbers / seen as disposable.

If you want to change society you do have to challenge behaviours but you also have to take the whole of it (or at least as much as you can) with you.

Honestly though we as a species are still very primitive (male and female). Being a 'good guy' or 'bad guy' often counts for little. Fix that and you'll change the rest.

I'm really happy you i.e. men, are discussing this. Our daughters, mums and sisters all need this conversation to be happening. Please whenever possible challenge behaviours/language within your male peer group. so for example, not laughing at misogynistic jokes. Tell your cousin he's being a dick if he cat calls some poor kid in her school uniform. That sort of thing. But yes, please keep talking. Thank you 😊

It's really good that men are discussing this. But there are also perspectives from women that you need to hear. There is the obvious catcalling, which is uncomfortable to experience, but there is also real threat from the non-obvious.

For example, decades ago I did a YTS in a firm of accountants. After a work event a graduate trainee gave me a lift home. I was only 16 and after a couple of cinzano's was a little worse for wear.

He drove to a deserted spot and said he was going to rip my knickers off and rape me because I was a prick teasing bitch.

I think there may be a disjuncture between what you think women are dealing with from a knuckle dragging minority and the reality of what women are actually dealing with from what appear to be clean cut regular guys.