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So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying?

174 replies

Pan2 · 15/03/2021 11:24

As a major on line source of voice via MN do we have a dadsnet view at all?

OP posts:
LifesLittleDeciders · 28/03/2021 07:05

These “what can we do to protect women” conversation need to be had with your sons, nephews, their friends.. young.

I was 13 when a classmate held me against a wall during lesson changeover and groped my vagina, the same lad who was often grope me just walking pass in the corridor; and the same young man who told me he knew the route I walked home (through the woods) and that he was going to hide and wait for me to rape me.

At 13 - I’d be concerned about where that behaviour and mindset has come from.

We should start by teaching boys. Behaviour is learned. I also agree porn doesn’t help; and although I think it would be hard to ban porn. It might be easier to ban the categories of porn. Titles such as ‘taught a lesson’ ‘shamed’ ‘surprised’ ‘slut got stuck so I fucked her’ - I mean, if you scroll through some of the titles a lot of them have gone to lengths to sugar coat the title that actually reads ‘raped and assaulted’.

Thanks gentlemen; going to shop myself back off to mumsnet now. Good luck! Flowers

Robbo94 · 29/03/2021 01:51

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Harriedharriet · 29/03/2021 03:22

@JustSpeculation

In a thread on male violence against women, let's focus on men being violent against women. It's what we are talking about. We're not going to solve all the evils of society, and it'll be more productive to just limit ourselves to the topic. We have some good suggestions, and good pointers from women talking about what they experience.

I don't think anyone has to risk life and limb on this, and I'm not getting the message that women want us to swing in like Batman and Robin to sort out the bad guys. It's a matter of raising awareness and, and helping create an environment where men will feel there will be consequences for harassment and violence. There things that we can do. Just having more people around and more obviously aware of what's going on in their surroundings would be good.

I remember walking alone through Brixton at night around the time of Operation Swamp, trying to make myself invisible. Really hoping that no one would notice me - for people who weren't around at the time, that was right at the start of the 80s, when Brixton was turned into a bleak nightmare of a place by misguided police tactics and continual hammering home of the idea that no one should ever poke their noses outside their door by government and press. Then I compare that to what happened after the smoking ban was introduced, and suddenly everyone had to smoke outside on the street. My God, the difference! Friendly, busy people using the streets. For the first time in South London I felt totally safe (bearing in mind I'm a man) walking in the small hours.

It's having people around, people who acknowledge your existence, that's going to make the difference. So instead of huddling in the corner of your bus seat staring at your phone with earbuds in, perhaps sitting with an air of "I'm here, I'm aware of what's going on, and if anything happens it will be noticed" might help.

Excellent point, and part of what turned NYC around - people on the streets, coffee shops/cafes/resturants with tables outside, better street lighting, bigger windows so people are looking out as well. Was in NY a few weeks ago - very scary at night again ( Midtown). Nobody around by 8pm, resturants closed, few cabs, deserted and sinister! So yes, engaged people, and lots of them!
sashh · 29/03/2021 04:32

Another thank you for discussing this.

I think you are in the minority discussing this but the discussion started with; We know that there is a certain number of men who commit acts of violence against women, and we know that others, we hope a very large majority, don't.

It's not a minority. It might be a minority who do the most heinous acts but most men have at some time been part of the problem.

I remember as a young teen watching an award show, the host made a rape joke (I think it was Noel Edmonds) and Neil Pearson said, "rape isn't funny" I fell in love with that man there and then. This was prime time TV, I'd be about 14, I'd heard rape jokes and it was the first time I heard anyone call it out.

That includes my brother (the jokes) he probably doesn't remember telling rape jokes, he has three adult children and is a 'good guy'

But one of the things that is a struggle is the next bit - what to do about it.

If you hear a rape joke, don't laugh, in fact call someone out.
Call out the creepy guy on the bus

if I witness anything. I'm not a fighter. I haven't hit anyone since a fight at school when I was about 13. That was literally half a century ago. So what do I do?

Call it out, take a photo, tell the guy that's your sister or cousin.

Look for it and document it. Start a website with what you have seen every day.

If you travel on the tube walk up the escalator and watch out for hands on bums - that is not a consenting act.

Acknowledge you are part of the problem.

Educate your sons / brothers / uncles / fathers. No it's not funny to pull a girl's skirt up, walk behind her, letch at, make comments, give score points, catcall.
Don't take it personally if a women tells you her experiences.

I went to a Catholic girl's school - be honest, what do you first think of when I say that? Look up Catholic girls in an urban dictionary.

Walking home in my school uniform was like wearing a sign saying 'heckle me'

Robbo94 · 29/03/2021 04:49

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sashh · 29/03/2021 06:39

The problem is that most guys are going to be scared of getting attacked, especially as it's often laddish blokes that tell these kind of jokes and non violent men that find them offensive.

And then people wonder why women put up with shit.

You don't have to be aggressive, just not laughing is a positive step. Or act like you are dumb and ask them to explain what is funny?

Triffid1 · 29/03/2021 09:34

On the recent thread where a poster was talking about a girl screaming/being chased outside her house, loads of female posters were saying that they wouldn't intervene for fear of retaliation - one poster said she'd walked past a girl getting beaten up and felt bad but didn't help

Both men and women take this view and frankly I think it's appalling. When did we stop realising that as a community we are responsible for supporting each other?

littleburn · 29/03/2021 10:39

It's interesting that a lot of responses focus on physical intervention. As a woman, I've been sexually assaulted once (ended up in court), groped on numerous occasions and had comments made to me on the street more times than I could count. This spectrum of behaviours exists in a misogynistic culture.

What I want is for men to be good allies and stop adding to that culture. Within your social circle stop laughing at rape jokes, stop turning a blind eye when your mate cat calls someone in the street, don't think it's funny to shout a comment out of a car window at a woman out jogging (yes I have tits, thanks for pointing that out). Don't let all that sort of shit pass as 'just bantz' because it's part of the problem. It's simple stuff really. I'm not asking anyone to get hurt for me.

Sexist and misogynistic behaviour should be just as socially unacceptable as racism and homophobia. I know many white guys who agree BLM and many straight guys who go to Pride. They'd never tolerate a mate telling a racist joke or shouting abuse at a POC or a gay guy, but they just don't seem to have that same energy when it comes to sexism and misogyny. It's just 'bantz', i.e. it's just women.

mbosnz · 29/03/2021 12:44

I was that poster that said that the one time I hadn't helped, still haunted me to this day. I couldn't help. I was lost in a city I didn't know, my phone had died, they were a drunken mob, and there was little ol' five foot me. And as I said, I feel bad to this fucking day.

The other times? The time where I helped the guy out who was drunk and distressed and his partner was pushing and shoving him, and we took him in to prevent escalation? The time that I stood between a young Muslim girl who had lightly tapped a six foot bastard's car and the six foot bastard, who squashed my arm in a car door and shoved me against another car? The time I found a girl bawling her eyes out outside our fence, took her in, calmed her down, drove her home?

Those count for nothing with me, in the face of the one time I couldn't do anything and didn't do anything. Apart from yell at them, which I did.

timeisnotaline · 29/03/2021 13:08

This is my favorite tweet today. It’s such a relief to see these guys are out there. (This is australia, going through it’s own cute little exploration phase for determining what level of conduct ie sexual assault is acceptable in ministers and parliamentary staff.)

So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying?
Robbo94 · 30/03/2021 01:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mbosnz · 30/03/2021 07:49

My point is that I don't as a woman, expect or demand that people put themselves in peril if they see a situation, just that they do what they feel they can do without compromising their own personal safety.

We don't want white knights riding to save us. We want to live in a society where we don't feel the need for saving. That's the long term goal. And obviously it will take a lot of time. But that means there's no time to be lost to get started. With the very small steps - having those discussions about consent, about rape myths, about what might constitute 'a bit of bants' from a lad or bunch of lads, can be very intimidating and constitute harassment for the girl or woman on the receiving end of it.

FrippEnos · 07/04/2021 16:32

mbosnz

I hope that the your second paragraph is what we all would like to see.

The thing about people putting themselves in danger is that it seems that there is a large amount of women that seem to think that men should do this.

On the occasions that I have (physically) stepped in to help I have ended up on the receiving end of a beating, two of these were from the woman.

What I would do now is ring the police and report an assault in progress.

Isitsixoclockalready · 22/04/2021 10:50

@LifesLittleDeciders

These “what can we do to protect women” conversation need to be had with your sons, nephews, their friends.. young.

I was 13 when a classmate held me against a wall during lesson changeover and groped my vagina, the same lad who was often grope me just walking pass in the corridor; and the same young man who told me he knew the route I walked home (through the woods) and that he was going to hide and wait for me to rape me.

At 13 - I’d be concerned about where that behaviour and mindset has come from.

We should start by teaching boys. Behaviour is learned. I also agree porn doesn’t help; and although I think it would be hard to ban porn. It might be easier to ban the categories of porn. Titles such as ‘taught a lesson’ ‘shamed’ ‘surprised’ ‘slut got stuck so I fucked her’ - I mean, if you scroll through some of the titles a lot of them have gone to lengths to sugar coat the title that actually reads ‘raped and assaulted’.

Thanks gentlemen; going to shop myself back off to mumsnet now. Good luck! Flowers

Totally agree with this.
Parkerwhereareyou · 23/04/2021 18:01

Dads/men - are women allowed to post on your threads? Not sure of the etiquette here ☺️ because I could chip in a bit if so ...

Stout01 · 24/04/2021 22:26

@Parkerwhereareyou

Dads/men - are women allowed to post on your threads? Not sure of the etiquette here ☺️ because I could chip in a bit if so ...
Yes. A lot of women do on here. Feel free :)
FrippEnos · 25/04/2021 20:40

@Parkerwhereareyou

Dads/men - are women allowed to post on your threads? Not sure of the etiquette here ☺️ because I could chip in a bit if so ...
It very much has to be a conversation that involves both men and women.
Parkerwhereareyou · 26/04/2021 18:49

Oh good, thx. Yes it needs to be a joint discussion I think.

Thinking now what I want to say ..

something2say · 01/08/2021 18:52

Have enjoyed reading this.

I was a domestic violence advisor for many years and I learned a thing or two. I came up with the idea of the sliding scale....how far along do you want to be on that scale? We have murder and rape and dismembering and things like that right up the one end of the scale, and then we have language like slag/slut, saying 'she deserved it because of how she was dressed' down the other. Would you grab her by the neck? No? But you would grab by the arm? Why? What about the hair?

For me it's all about how far every man wants to go along that scale. I have been so hugely disappointed by some men. Even this one very popular good looking young man who worked in the women's hostel with us, the older hardcore feminists loved him, but one night he sought me out and explained that he lost respect for a woman when she had sex with him, and his new girl was ready to go to bed. He didn't even get his own sexism, yet he loved being well regarded and good for the vulnerable women. And he didn't even get his own sexuality, or the sexuality of his partner, and he was going to enter the fray not knowing he didn't know, and the result was the woman he engaged with would be labelled by him as morally cheap. That just about sums the problem up for me.

I want to see men doing equal house work, child care. I see men in the pub moaning about lack of sex with their wives yet who's at home doing bedtime bathtime while said man is chilling with his pint?

I want it recognised that women like sex just as much as men and there is no moral degradation when a woman likes sex. It's about as stupid as saying women are worth more if they deny themselves sleep.

We also need to look at the idea of beauty and ownership. A massive can of worms there.

So my question is, how far along the scale are you? Are you using language that people are cringing at? Do you call women slags or sluts? Do you say things like 'I'd do that' meaning you'd have sex with that woman.

And it's also good that someone else on this thread brought up the fact that white collar DV abusers absolutely ABOUND. I cannot tell you the top city men, the Drs, the policemen (not white collar) and all sorts of other men you'd assume were good men but who were throwing things across the kitchen, watching for dust, commenting on lengths of skirts or hair or not letting wives go out or on holiday, despite doing it themselves. And the violence! All behind closed doors. And what do you get in response? Well he did this, this and this. Well I don't care, he's an XYZ and I forgive bumming a few boys for that. Well, you don't KNOW he did it, it's just HER saying it.

Btw did you know that when an old Shock famous boozer footballer beat his wife's face so badly she ran down to the hotel lobby covered in blood and crying, they said SHE had to leave because SHE was bring the place down. Footballing hero, doesn't matter about the woma.

My answer to this would be along these lines -

Ban violence in movies. There is a link, well documented.
Ban non consensual porn.
Teach men that they do now do cleaning, cooking, shopping and what used to be wife work. If you move in with a woman and she is doing more work then she was doing when you didn't live with her, don't go on incel moaning about women when she throw you out. Own up to the fact that you think women should do most of the housework because that's just the way it is and you don't care that it is detrimental to her happiness.
Create not prisons, more boot camps for unruly gangs and troublesome people. Up at 7, make your bed, out for a run, decent breakfast, learn a skill, time with mummy making up for what you didn't get as a kid, let's have s routine, let's learn to spell, let's learn plumbing, camping, etc. four years later move to a half way house, get a job, continue on, no fighting, no drinking, no shouting at strangers, no violence.
I'd do big advertising campaigns clarifying what is wrong and right. Grabbing people, touching any sexual area, projecting sex onto women in a professional environment, pushing, shoving, thinking it is your right to be in control etc....a huge campaign to raise awareness.
I would remove all naked female images, or you have to explain the link between endless female sexuality on display as normal and sexual offences, AND if you want to keep it, you must match it with a naked male on prominent display.
Clarify the matter of 'why isn't there a MEN'S day???' Every day is men's day.
Massively increase sentencing for assaults. Ask judges why they let people off. Ask lawyers and barristers why they use their intelligence to free violent males.

And many other things.

My bottom line however is that the times we live in, men have not been taught equality because it makes life harder for them. (I have to wash my OWN pants! I have to clean the toilet! I have to do Christmas shopping!!!) and they don't know, don't like and don't care. Many females won't shack up with a male now, when we can pay our own way and enjoy our lives more, and the fact that the sad divorced men think this is about women instead of asking themselves WHY she didn't want to remain living with him, is the answer. Maybe in a couple of generations, we will have young men who can take care of themselves and don't look down on women.

As for me, I've had nice partners but never married any. I am solvent, own my own place, love my own space but do share it with a rugby playing gentle giant.....who made me smile not long ago by taking to task his GAY workmate, who is seeing a girl, and not wanting to fuck her, but wanted to have a go at her for staying out late at a party. It does sink in, but pick that apart eh?

CupoTeap · 01/08/2021 19:07

Hopefully saying it's fucking wrong or else you are part of the problem

Roblox01 · 03/08/2021 21:10

something2say. You make some good points but you also seem to be suggesting all the issues are with men and they really aren't. There isn't really any balance in your post.

ParkheadParadise · 03/08/2021 21:24

Interesting thread.
My dd was murdered by her ex-partner. He was known to be violent in the past, actually, he was a fucking nut job.
My dd was violent towards him in the years they were together (they both had a drug problem at the time) she did get clean.

FrippEnos · 05/08/2021 11:33

something2say

Clarify the matter of 'why isn't there a MEN'S day???' Every day is men's day.

There is an international men's day its November 19th, this years is to

"celebrate the positive value men bring to the world, their families and communities"

In previous years it has been for men's mental health.
It would help if men were allowed to celebrate the positives of being male or male issues without the endless negative commentary.

We often hear 'men should talk about their feelings' etc. but when they do we get the usual negative comments (from women as well as men).

If there is to be any progress made society needs to make a fundamental shift in what it believes and what it wants for both male and female (and any other associated genders)

Roblox01 · 08/08/2021 08:55

@FrippEnos

something2say

Clarify the matter of 'why isn't there a MEN'S day???' Every day is men's day.

There is an international men's day its November 19th, this years is to

"celebrate the positive value men bring to the world, their families and communities"

In previous years it has been for men's mental health.
It would help if men were allowed to celebrate the positives of being male or male issues without the endless negative commentary.

We often hear 'men should talk about their feelings' etc. but when they do we get the usual negative comments (from women as well as men).

If there is to be any progress made society needs to make a fundamental shift in what it believes and what it wants for both male and female (and any other associated genders)

Well said 👏
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