So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying?

[Pan2]

As a major on line source of voice via MN do we have a dadsnet view at all?

ah yes, FrippEnos apolos again ,it was stout01 indicating a 'hostile response' - I've been around MN long enough to recognise those!

There will be a multitude of resistances to improving things on male violence against girls and women, some apparent and some of them just by inertia. It's rare that those people with advantage voluntarily pass it over to those with less. A bit like " I support you 100%...until it costs me something, then....."
Or " I don't make the rules, I just benefit from them."

I'd hope we stick to the thrust of the thread's title - as has been said we can come up with ideas to improve VAWG.

I used to live in Manchester - pubs used to get closed a lot, re drugs and violence. Has anyone heard of action on licensees re misogyny? I'm doubting it.

It's heartening as a woman, to read this being discussed by men, because in my experience, the men I have contact with seem to feel that as they're not raping and murdering anyone, they're doing enough.

It's a societal problem, much like abuse against children, or vulnerable adults, it's now seen as everyone's responsibility male or female, to do something about. It's not simply enough for me to not abuse children personally, or not to abuse vulnerable adults personally, it's my responsibility to try and stop it happening, in ways that keep me safe and also helps the person being abused. Wasn't there a campaign about child abuse being 'everyone's business' a while ago?
I for one, don't expect a man (or woman) to step in there and then and take a beating or a blade for me if I were being targeted. But men can add weight, I'd certainly appreciate someone not just walking on by but observing and calling the police, adding their witness statement, even if not asked directly by the woman, taking responsibility for reporting it themselves because they know it's something that shouldn't be happening.
That would create a situation where I would feel safer, knowing that someone (man or woman) would report something they see happening, and be willing to back it up with a statement, rather than just walk on by and forget it happened.

NiceGerbil Sat 20-Mar-21 22:29:30

Great post, thank you.

Stop telling boys from a young age that:

They must be big and strong
They must not cry
Showing weakness is a failure
To grow a pair
To man up
Why can't you lift/carry that...? Are you a pansy/girl?

"Again this response is part of the problem.
All victims must be seen, because it stops the 'whataboutery' and the 'can't we just talk about'."

Did you read the thread title, this is specifically about male violence towards women.

andyoldlabour

It also says

"what are we saying?"

Or did you miss that in the rush to police the thread?

But you are the one doing the 'whataboutery' here, Fripp. The 'what are we saying?' is in regards to male on female violence. As it says.

[quote goldielockdown2 ]But you are the one doing the 'whataboutery' here, Fripp. The 'what are we saying?' is in regards to male on female violence. As it says. [/quote]
Delurking to agree with this - the thread is about what can be done about VAWG

Very welcome thread Pan

Men and women will benefit from reduced violence against women and girls.

How we treat our children, and how we encourage them to treat others. Stop teaching girls to be sweet, and boys to be tough.
Teach boys stand up for other people, not to go along with the gang.
Teach them that being accepted by peers is a double edged sword- they need to be judgemental about who they wish to be accepted by.

That women and girls know what they want and you don't need to play games about it- just communicate.

goldielockdown2 and andyoldlabour

I have posted what I think needs to be done against VAWGs.

I have also posted that name calling those that don't agree is not the way things are going to get changed nor does it help when we are supposed to be calling out toxic masculinity/behaviour yet don't allow others to show feelings or thoughts by being "toxic".

And yes I believe that its not just men that can and should fight against VAWG.

I believe that society as a whole needs to be looked at so that all those that bring up children (it takes a village) to stop saying things like 'boys will be boys' or excuse poor the poor behaviour of primary school children because 'hair pulling is showing the girl that he likes her'.

I also believe that there needs to be a major change in who people's heroes are because some of the detritus that people, companies and associations are defending on a regular basis gives the impression that bad behaviour is not only acceptable but desirable.

As for "whataboutery" I am saying that we can use male experiences to link to female ones when they are similar, that way we can get through to those that are not won't see what is going on.

TanteRose - lovely to see you! Hoping all is well? We are v well here.

Thank you Pan and men of Mumsnet.

I was going to go on about porn but that's probably a whole lother thread.

Can I just say, please tell your boys to never ever ever put their hands around a woman's neck. Not in fun, not as a joke, not as "breath play". Just never do it.

[quote goldielockdown2 ]Stout and Fripp, have you thought about starting your own thread instead of trying to make OP's into the one you want and telling him he is part of 'the problem'. This is a specific subject being spoken about here. Why highjack it because you don't like it? [/quote]
Oh come on. How many threads on this board get hijacked. A Dad posts something and then all these posters that havent any interest of male issues come on to tell him he's not giving the full story / it's his fault blah blah blah.

Back to the point in hand, with porn maybe trying to regulate and those that want to use it jumping through a number of hoops to do so. The embarrassment factor would put most off.

That's also a good idea about no tolerance. If the sex pests / dick pic brigade could be reported with the risk that after two or three instances they face potential repercussions. Would prove hard to get prosecutions but would change behaviours significantly.

BoreOfWhabylon

I was going to go on about porn but that's probably a whole lother thread.

The thing is thought that its not another thread its another aspect of the problem.

And its not just about porn, but also the ability to send any pictures to anyone anywhere and our increased dependence upon social media and the internet.

@FrippEnos

BoreOfWhabylon

I was going to go on about porn but that's probably a whole lother thread.

The thing is thought that its not another thread its another aspect of the problem.

And its not just about porn, but also the ability to send any pictures to anyone anywhere and our increased dependence upon social media and the internet.

I was discussing the porn issue with a male colleague. We were wondering that in 'our time' (biyj 40s) access to porn was quite restricted to older brothers/dads stashes and quite likely that we'd had some experience (both male and female ) with actual people of the opposite sex by the time anyone had access to porn freely. We knew it was fantasy and not how it happens in real life, but now with devices and porn being so widely available, a lot of first time experiences come after having being exposed to a fair amount of porn first and having unrealistic expectations from the start.

I remember teen boys having to be told that real women don't have staples across their tummies.

Then a couple of years ago I had a very rude picture sent to me whilst on a train. Matey who is techy tells me my bluetooth would have been on and identifiable, and the sender would have sent it to any and every phone as such, on the train. Obv including childrens.

Hiya, hope it's OK to add my thoughts here? (woman). My dh is very gentle, pro women's rights etc and we talk about this a lot, but I distinctly remember a conversation with him years ago where I explained that I don't go out at night alone, or if I do I'm nervous and take precautions (carry my keys, not distracted by music, watching my surroundings etc) and he was really surprised. He's got a number of sisters and they do the same and we'd been married a few years already and he hadn't noticed/it hadn't occurred to him that going out in the dark was very different for me than for him.

I think it helped him understand more about how women and men experience the world differently, how in the same situation what he'd laugh off, I'd feel scared.

From conversations with a couple of other guys I'd also call "good guys" a number of them were also surprised by this. when we talked about this more, it helped to also clarify why male behaviours that they see as minor (cat calling etc) are so much more threatening. Because they hadn't had to ever think about it, the impact of the physical differences between men and women on the way women experience the world had never occurred to them. Once they got it, a lot of what they saw as women complaining about minor things suddenly made a lot more sense.

I think everyone knows that women are (generally) smaller and weaker, but it doesn't follow that all men actually then realise how differently it affects how women move through the world compared to men.

I do live in an insular community so I'm aware my experience is probably not reflective of the general population, apologies if this just seems hopelessly naive - but I was thinking that rather than approaching men and boys and telling them all the things that men do that make women feel uncomfortable, possibly putting men on the defensive, and maybe triggering a NAMALT type response, maybe more discussion in schools would be helpful. So getting teens to see and experience the difference themselves, get them engaged in problen solving how boys and girls can work together to create a safer society.

For example, the blind museum in Israel gives sighted people the chance to get a small bit of an insight into what moving through the world without sight is like, giving them more awareness of a few of the obstacles blind people face. So doing something along those lines and triggering discussions in teens, showing how the differences between sexes affects how they experience the world, getting the kids on board with being part of the solution rather than kind of listing behaviours that are bad and telling them not to do them.
Getting kids involved in being part of the change.

(I mean doing this alongside moving towards making porn illegal, and other tools for change).

Hiya, hope it's OK to add my thoughts here? (woman).

I don't think this thread will move on much without women's input. I also think men have to go through the NAMALT reaction before they can come out the other side and see things from women's perspective - that while it's not all men, women don't know which ones are which.

I’m raising (soon to be) three boys so this is really important to me. Male issues are obviously important to me too (male suicide etc) so trying to raise them against the ‘boys will be boys’ ‘man up’ brigade will hopefully help them as individuals as well as they perceive themselves as men. I agree the ‘bad boy’ image is romanticised & violence to a certain degree - 50 shades & 365 days as an example 🤮

My eldest is only 5 so I’ve a long way to go until they are men, hopefully society will change as a whole. I have nothing useful to add but great to see men discussing this!

Thanks Ella, that reflects my process of being 'educated' about the considerations that women have to make which we chaps don't give a second thought to. That thing about seeing a woman in through her front door, and lights, on before you drive off. Dropping a male matey off, and you just slow down a bit before opening the passenger door....

Noting the DV Bill currently in the HoL's has passed an amendment to create a 'stalker's' list, incl serial DVers. Really interesting developement.

@chocolateorangeinhaler

Stop telling boys from a young age that:

They must be big and strong
They must not cry
Showing weakness is a failure
To grow a pair
To man up
Why can't you lift/carry that...? Are you a pansy/girl?

I work in childcare. This has been a fairly big thing recently. Everybody in the profession should have been warned about stereotypical traits when praising children by now. Whether or not the staff do it is a different matter.

That thing about seeing a woman in through her front door, and lights, on before you drive off.

It's quite interesting. I grew up in South Africa, and this was standard. You never ever drive off without seeing someone into their house and every single person I know from home still does this. Similarly, the men I know in the UK from South Africa wouldn't dream of letting a woman walk home alone etc. But there was a big backlash at some point. A lot of women got irritated, understandably, about the paternalistic attitude even though it was based on the simple reality that women are more at risk in public at night than men are.

As a woman, my contribution to this is that men have to listen to women, even when what they say seems wrong. I've had sooooo many conversations with men where I'll say something about, for example, how frustrating that yet another man got promoted at my workplace over a woman and I'll get at best, the man nodding and changing the subject or at worst, he'll get defensive and start telling me that I don't know the man was qualified etc. On the harassment side, I'm sure many women have had that conversation in the broader office where, for example, discussing drinks with a client someone will say, "Oh god, but that Dick guy is so creepy and a bit handsy" and the women will agree and the men will say, "better keep away from him then". When really, the answer should be, "if we see him saying or doing anything inappropriate we'll jump in" or even better, "well then let's not have drinks with this person, even though he's a client."

I was on a call recently on behalf of a client (ie it was my client's client). Both are men. The client's client said something that I found extremely offensive. Afterwards, I tried to discuss it with my client who basically told me to "calm down dear". I'm still considering whether or not to refuse to engage with his client again. But the truth is that I don't really have a choice. I'd happily ditch the client, but because of the way my business is structured, if I choose to ditch this one client of my client, he might choose to fire me from all his clients, massively impacting my income. So I am stuck.

As a woman, I'm encouraged that this discussion is even being had. That's progress. I'm also encouraged by the growing awareness amongst men of the precautions that women have to take against this ever-present threat. We have a long way to go, but open, honest dialogue is always good.

I think the NAMALT reactions are inevitable, and so is the whataboutery. There are some valid points there, of course, but we should not allow them to detract from the specific debate about VAWG. Denying the problem or trying to change the subject will not make the issue go away.

I have been thinking about this issue a lot recently, after my 15yo ordered rape alarms off Amazon for herself and her friends after one of her friends had a frightening encounter when out running. I am angry that our children have to even think about this, and so saddened by the fact that we don't seem to have moved on since I was the same age. I don't know what the solution is though. I don't think the onus is only on men to solve the problem. We have to work together as a society to find our way through.

I'm really heartened to see the stuff that dd's male friends are posting on social media. They "get it" and are doing their best to call out inappropriate behaviour when they see it. At the same time, there are loads of other boys the same age who clearly don't get it. I don't know how we begin to tackle those attitudes. Better education on these issues in schools would be a start, but my gut tells me that schools alone can't fix this problem. A lot will stem from what kids witness in the home and in society more generally. I do think that it's hard to change certain attitudes once they are ingrained, so somehow, we need to start when children are very young. I don't know how, though.

I do think the criminal justice system needs a massive overhaul. Like many (most?) women, I have failed to report sexual assaults on several occasions, because I just haven't seen any point. If women do not trust that they will be believed and treated with dignity, they will not report. If women do not believe that they will be taken seriously and that meaningful action will be taken, they will not report. And the perpetrators will therefore face no consequences and will carry on perpetrating.

I agree with other posters that tackling everyday low-level misogyny is really important. It is so normalised in our society that it's really easy not to notice it, but I have become increasingly aware in recent years of just how ubiquitous it is. Not just among men either - there is a great deal of internalised misogyny amongst women too. We all need to call it out when we hear it, because it perpetuates a culture in which VAWG is allowed to continue.

Interesting thread. I hope this isn't too much of a derailment, but I also wonder as well as the much needed shift in attitudes discussed above, that technology could play a small part in reducing vawg. In the same way that cyclists often wear helmet cameras and this can be used to prosecute dangerous drivers, I wonder if it will become standard for women on nights out to use apps that record and upload video and audio, just in case something happens? This could in extreme cases help with prosecutions, but more generally make men think twice about crappy behaviour if they run the risk of being recorded and outed on social media. This may be a terrible idea idk.