So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying?

[Pan2]

As a major on line source of voice via MN do we have a dadsnet view at all?

Victim thing JKC - yes lots of men feel angry at what they see as being discriminated against, and incels are just the ultimate expectant complain-festers, imho

But for a lot of men, the unwillingness to admit that they have been victims of physical, or emotional, or specifically sexual abuse is very probably rooted in seeing it as admission of weakness and vulnerability. Probably? So wiping that part of themselves out means there is no bridge to a connect to the suffering of anyone else as a victim (in these cases women and gilrs), and having that emotional ability to empathise would otherwise be extremely useful in understanding why it;s important to NOT create other victims.

I think the 'casual conversation' is interesting. Society's attitudes appear to have change a lot in that regard. So a number of decades ago it a lot of male circles it would have been okay to make reference to 'giving her a slap' now and again - we did have very anti-women laws in place til quite recently. ( I ^think* the marital defence to rape was only removed in the early 1990s). Quite similar to attitudes to racism? That many people observe that racism is a lot less prevelant on the surface, but for many it's just become underground.

@Pan2

Victim thing JKC - yes lots of men feel angry at what they see as being discriminated against, and incels are just the ultimate expectant complain-festers, imho

But for a lot of men, the unwillingness to admit that they have been victims of physical, or emotional, or specifically sexual abuse is very probably rooted in seeing it as admission of weakness and vulnerability. Probably? So wiping that part of themselves out means there is no bridge to a connect to the suffering of anyone else as a victim (in these cases women and gilrs), and having that emotional ability to empathise would otherwise be extremely useful in understanding why it;s important to NOT create other victims.

Okay, but doesn't that mean that the amount of such abuse is huge? For the levels of abuse that we are now finding out women suffer, from being shouted at in the street, to assault, rape and murder, there has to be hundreds of thousands of men who have been abused - if that is the root cause. Do you think that is the case?

Yes it was me and my very different brother, you refer to. My sister's and I speculate on mental health issues, which made him so different.
Again though, as a sex-based difference, my brother and lots of men lash out when they feel compromised by their ability to handle life- whereas women are more likely to lash in, and self-harm than harm others.
I think.

Well the victim explanation is only one thing - fwiw I don't think there is one factor explanation - so lots of men abuse with no self-victim history.
I think probably being told from an early age you are 'better' or more special, or more deserving than your female counterpart feeds into that 'right' and removal of any need to understand their situation and vulnerability. It just doesn't matter, compared to your own relative value. iyswim.

Just seeing that report, and CCTV of the trainee copper assaulting the woman on her way home, and accompanied by abusive language based on her being a woman. And CPS DON'T authorise the charge immediately? And he keeps his job in the interim??
Lordy.

@Pan2

Victim thing JKC - yes lots of men feel angry at what they see as being discriminated against, and incels are just the ultimate expectant complain-festers, imho

But for a lot of men, the unwillingness to admit that they have been victims of physical, or emotional, or specifically sexual abuse is very probably rooted in seeing it as admission of weakness and vulnerability. Probably? So wiping that part of themselves out means there is no bridge to a connect to the suffering of anyone else as a victim (in these cases women and gilrs), and having that emotional ability to empathise would otherwise be extremely useful in understanding why it;s important to NOT create other victims.

I think this goes back to my earlier comment. The support needs to be there for men. To be honest I think women act as badly it's just done in a very different way. Although obviously not with the physical intent in most cases for obvious reasons.

Terms like incel / Disney Dad. Do they help / serve a purpose ot just act as a way of dismissing men in a way that we are trying to stop happening to women.

I don't always think it's a case of not admitting things. My ex was a bloody nightmare and still is. Her actions terrible but even so she just merrily carries on. I don't think a man would have got a way with similar actions. So yes there is perhaps a feeling of victimhood but its not in a way that has stopped me living my life / stopped me seeing my kids / functioning in society. But it does make it more difficult and does lead to less empathy when you aren't shown the same courtesy.

This thread won't fizzle out. It's a long term thing.

I know men have problems, and they often don't talk about them, and they can be devastating, and they can involve bad treatment by other people, sometimes including women, but that's not the issue here. I'm not poohpoohing the serious of that issue, because it's a real one and needs to be taken very seriously. But if we make that the focus, stopping men from attacking women by repairing the men, we'll be here till doomsday.

There was an article by Caitlin Moran in the Times colour supplement today (Colour supp! That dates me!). She was making some good points about night time being an effective curfew for women, which men tend not to consider. There's just a lack of awareness. She makes the point that if you look at men walking alone at night, you see men walking alone at night. Going somewhere. Doing stuff. If you look at women walking alone at night you often see no one because they are just not there. They autocurfew themselves. I admit I had not thought of it like that.

Now, it's not possible to introduce a mandatory curfew for men. But it would be possible to introduce a kind of symbolic curfew, once a month, maybe on a Saturday night to really drive the point home, in which men are asked not to go out on their own or in groups without a woman to escort them. Make a fuss about it as an awareness raising measure. It would royally piss a lot of people off, and it would be widely ignored, but it would be ever present as a reminder of what women go through. It would keep the issue current. It would be a start. It would something.

What do you think?

Symbolically its not a bad idea like clap for carers etc.

If we (society) wants to change male aggression and sexual violence it has to start at the very highest levels. Judges need to hand out much tougher sentences. Women need to stop being blamed for their partners behaviour (recently a woman was sentenced by a court because she 'allowed' her partner to kill her baby....I strongly suspect she had been used as a punch bag, and how the hell does a petite 22 year old fight or argue with something built like a brick shit house?) look at prison sentences for females who kill their children compared to sentences of males who kill their children. Look how the media treat female perpetrators compared to male perpetrators. Look at how women's safe places are being eroded.
What about the woman killed by sexual violence 'because it's what they wanted' consented to being killed did they?
Seriously start with the blatant misogyny in our court rooms and media.

A mum here. I won't fill up your thread but I'm so happy to read this discussion. Some interesting points.

On the banning porn idea. It's not just making it illegal, it's actually prosecuting it. I seem to remember that while it's illegal to view child rape, if someone is caught, there's often no jail time because the prisons couldn't cope. So they basically are back out looking for new ways to satisfy their urges. Maybe prison isn't the answer, but there's definitely a message sent when prosecution isn't actually that "painful".

Kind of the same with guilty rape verdicts vs numbers reported. The guys who do this stuff know full well they're essentially protected in law. The rest of the population generally don't know, unless they read about it, or something really bad happens to them/relative/friend.

I'll disappear now. Will be reading along though!

Here's a share token for the Caitlin Moran article mentioned upthread in the Times copied from a different thread.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/af930952-88fa-11eb-8b38-e2425c3b9f1b?shareToken=afaf64df495604b8b5c920f09f4000ab

Oops, wrong link

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/af930952-88fa-11eb-8b38-e2425c3b9f1b?shareToken=afaf64df495604b8b5c920f09f4000ab

Sigh, 3rd time

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/caitlin-moran-womens-safety-and-what-men-need-to-do-about-it-0n6g2rbbt?shareToken=b763a7ef3c920e6e8ba63549abf1eca8

I'm a woman so not sure if I should post!

It kind of runs through society, a casual misogyny but also a 'not my problem' mindset.

And I know that it's really hard for men to challenge other men at work etc.

But stuff like.

If there's a rapey joke or talking about a passing woman's body then don't signal any approval. Don't need to say that's out of order or have a row. Just. Wander off if it's at work. Don't smile. Look po faced...

If there's a woman at work and a man says something sexist then support is appreciated. The amount of times I've pulled a man up on something they said, he argues, and loads of blokes stand around looking uncomfy. Then find you after and say how awful he was. Just. I agree with her. Or. That's out of line.

If you're in a pub or somewhere and see a bloke hassling women then tell the staff. No need to get involved. That's easy.

I would think that if eg I was on a tube station or somewhere and a man came up and said there's a girl over there and that bloke won't leave her alone and she looks worried I don't suppose you could check on her. I think it would be better from a woman. I would say oh thanks great and go off and see what was happening.

If there's serious stuff happening then call the police. Shout I've called the police if you want. Again no need to go steaming in.

Stuff like that.

Loads.

You see a bloke staring at a woman on the train. Make eye contact with him. Let him know you've seen. DH did that to s man watching porn in s family cafe once and he looked sheepish and stopped.

The little tiny things that add up to a sense that no, this is not acceptable in our society, is the only way to get things moving I think.

Sorry that was long. Don't know if useful.

Thanks Tyne - esp for your tenacity.

Yes, it's irrefutable that it's a mans' problem, and we ALL know what to say in response to NAMALT or 'not my Nigel'.

imho women should be posting here too. Lots of good reasons.

Another thing is the strength of role models in life - they show us how to problem solve. Parents are the most powerful of these and IF your male role model shows you that beating your wife/partner is a useful thing to do then there is a high degree of likelihood you will do the same.
A very scarily high proportion of male DVers witnessed this role-modelled behaviour at home - about 85-90% study-to-study.

So a challenge would be "so do you want to turn out like your dad?" for instance.

I was abused by a woman. I had no support from anyone including the police.
The BBC especially in the past 10 days on radio 5 seem to forget male victims of abuse. They were even talking this week about curfews for men after 6pm.
I have become more aware of women whilst out walking and trying to keep a bigger distance. I don't really no what else I can do. I wouldn't be comfortable with a bloke making sexual remarks or slapping a women's backside but I would also be nervous about stepping in.

That was useful I think Nice - just actually DO something! Acquiesence here is the same as tacit support.

Yellow - given the events of last week, would you not think it's reasonable to focus on male violence on women, without having to account for the comparatively smaller incidence of female abuse of males? I'd think so.

Thank you, men on dadsnet for having this discussion. As a young woman, I quite honestly feel despair due to these issues that permeate every minute of our lives.

The point about violence being hidden is very valid. Statistically, a woman is most likely to be raped by a man who she knows and trusts. Now, most of us don't go around trusting men who display obvious violence and misogyny so there are issues of perceived entitlement and understanding and accepting not just the word "no" but other indications of non-consent.

The favourite joke amongst male friends at uni was "it's not rape if you shout surprise". These are men who are respectful and kind towards women, who call out misogynistic behaviour when they see it, but as you are discussing - calling out obvious behaviour is not enough.

Thank you again for having this discussion, it's given me hope when most men I know just go quiet, at best.

@pan2 . So we ignore abuse of men? "Just man up"???
I'm sure in the past week men have been victims as well. I had zero support from West Mercia police.
I fully support highlighting women being made to feel safe especially when I have a 15 year old daughter.
I also believe women should be investigated if they abuse men in any way shape or form.

No we don't just ignore it - I'd never say that.

BUT.... women's right to their anger over being abused shouldn't be 'balanced' by the comparatively smaller incidence of male violence.

I am sorry you were attacked and not supported, I really am, but we aren't talking about you or your experience here. Women should be entitled to take their rightful space over this.

This is low bar stuff but...

Please keep taking about it. I couldn’t get (male) friends to even engage this week or publicly support anti-violence anything. They (a) did not recognise a problem and/or (b) did not want to publicly take a stance. So that’s the first step obviously.

Then day to day it’s about enforcing boundaries - the last time I was groped was on the tube as no one helped. Just to have someone step in and recognise the problem, challenge the perpetrator (not dramatically), help film it for evidence... anything.

Then as op has said it’s a wider issue of male dominance. I don’t mean this in some scary way but it’s important to me. In loads of jobs you think “where are all the women”. In my sector we start off female-heavy, by mid-30s there are a small minority of us. Where do they go? No they don’t all go off to have kids, a lot get “let go” before they can and never taken seriously. Either people aren’t hiring women from the outset or they actively or otherwise lose them in the structure. In my field “success” has been a bloke and people aren’t willing to take a punt on others. So professionally it’s hard, and professionally is really only where you come across people publicly. If we aren’t common in all professions and levels, it impacts how all people see us (and how colleagues see us, or pre-judge us). Not saying any of you will have, but that’s my experience.

As pp have said the justice system is a joke. Chances of being charged and then convicted for a sex crime (against anyone) is basically nil. The fact a policeman tried to grab a girl, got convicted and has kept his job... and been not jailed.... and FYI he was only convicted after she (victim) had the bravery/ boldness to appeal CPS saying lack of evidence despite cctv.

In terms of sexual harassment, for me it’s been at home, transport including taxis, school, uni, jobs (multiple), pubs (not gigs weirdly). It’s been groping, drink spiking, flashing, someone trying to grab me. We do need some sort of intervention now because I do think violence is contagious (or normalised) and whether it’s getting more frequent or not... at least it’s being talked about

No probs pan. The drip drip of the daily stuff is a big deal for women and girls, and we'll only start to get real change when society in general (esp men) give the signals that no it's not acceptable.

And it can be done without fighting, stepping in, rowing with your mates etc. A few of those things is better than all the talk in the world.