So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying?

[Pan2]

As a major on line source of voice via MN do we have a dadsnet view at all?

yes, no-one is asking any man to be superman, or do anything that isn't the decent thing. And in my experience, other men listen and take note of you as a man on these things, than any woman in their life.

Yellowshirt it’s the same problem of violence and then lack of support and lack of justice. It’s no better for women when they’re on the receiving end.... it’s a problem common for all victims. It’s sadly true that it’s more common for women to be on the receiving end, which is why we’re discussing it here, not because it’s any less real what you went through but because of how more it happens against one group. It’s a case of discussing why there’s that frequency, and now to stop it, not lessening that men go through it too. Some of the things people post here might be true of how to prevent women from committing DV

Backstreet - looks quite the litany. Women should be able to enforce their own boundaries, and have men around them assist them in that.

Would a campaign from young, male celebs make a difference, do we think? Impressing on the younger/next generation that this stuff isn't cool or tolerated.

(I'm a woman- sorry to jump in)
I think a typical reaction I've seen from men is assuming they have to be violent to make a change, e.g. 'I'm not fighting anyone on behalf of a stranger'. No one is asking all men to become thugs- defeats the object.
If every man makes small, low level contributions such as: showing disproval through facial expression when hearing misogynistic bullshit, not laughing at sexist jokes and swiftly changing the subject, raising this topic in conversation, challenging NAMALT attitudes even if it's a dismissive shake of the head, etc then over a number of years and maybe even generations, it will surely add up to a change in culture.

Really interesting read, thank you.

Attitude is important, the desire for change. I see a tendency for this kind of incident to be seen as endemic, inevitable, 'men are like that'. That leads to requiring women to modify their behaviour to keep themselves safe.

Having this conversation challenges that assumption. This conversation needs to be going on everywhere. Abusive men need to hear all the other men talking about challenging it and changing the climate.

All the low level sexual gratification entitlement stuff- alcohol to help her relax/get her in the mood etc.
All the jokes that objectify women.
Have a few replies lined up 'sounds a bit rapey mate' 'nothing like enthusiastic consent there, then'.

Though again, those jokes are rarely made around people who don't appreciate them.

@Pan2

Yellow - given the events of last week, would you not think it's reasonable to focus on male violence on women, without having to account for the comparatively smaller incidence of female abuse of males? I'd think so.

To repeat the point Ive made up thread men need support as well.

I'm assuming you're a bloke but I'm quite surprised by this post. It's the typical hostile response to men you often get on MN.

I fully agree it's about breaking the cycle. My exs Dad was a DVer and it's led to his children (male and female) acting in a similar way. What it must have been like to grow up in that environment I dread to think.

I think it’s low level stuff that would be good to try and change first. I always find it amazing that guys can compartmentalise other woman from their own female family
Members . Just for example pretty girl/woman I’ve heard many times bloke say to mate I’d give her one. Imagine that being said about your daughter, sister and mother then it wouldn’t be funny. There is something in men’s genetic makeup to dominate as seen in prostitution and porn.

Woman here. Like Nice, I agree completely that all men can contribute by not accepting the low level stuff. The misogynist joke, the sexist rant about a woman at work. Ive also had men say things in work or behave in a way they wouldn't with a man and afterwards, men telling me they are sorry that happened. To which my response is, well then why didn't you step in?!

A much earlier poster commented on not wanting to be physically assulated by three lads on a bus if he steps in when harassing a woman and while I understand that sentiment, I find it sad. This sort of behaviour happens because as a society we no longer feel any sense of responsibility to or for each other. In that imaginary situation, a woman is physically ot mentally abused instead and that's obviously better? The reality id that if those three imaginary lads knew that the rest of the busses passengers wouldn't allow it, they wouldn't do it.

It starts very young, as well.

On the primary playground with girls wearing less comfortable clothes that look 'nicer', and parents cooing about their little boyfriend etc.

With the Daddy's little Princess stuff.

With teasing and tickling 'in fun'.

Stout, are you saying men need support to change, to step away from abusive behaviour? Or are you saying men are victims of men's violence? Or that men are victims of women's abuse? If the latter, then that's a different thread and has no place here on this thread about changing men's behaviour toward women.

@Pan2

Yellow - given the events of last week, would you not think it's reasonable to focus on male violence on women, without having to account for the comparatively smaller incidence of female abuse of males? I'd think so.

Again this response is part of the problem.

All victims must be seen, because it stops the 'whataboutery' and the 'can't we just talk about'.

@Pan2

Would a campaign from young, male celebs make a difference, do we think? Impressing on the younger/next generation that this stuff isn't cool or tolerated.

It would help but only if they were proactive in putting their own houses in order first.

Are young men really going to listen when football teams et al support wife beaters, rapists and racists?

Blimey, I'm finding it extraordinary that suggesting we focus on male violence without getting into the whataboutery of female violence is seen as 'aggressive'.

Pan2

No-one has said that it's aggressive, I think that it is unhelpful.

Everybody's view needs to be taken as valid or you will turn people away from the discussion.

It has been said on other threads that male victims of DV can't possibly feel the same way as female victims.

How can we know this if we don't listen to them?

Surely the man that couldn't get help for being abused feels the same way about it and the woman that could get help for being abused?

And more to the point (bringing it back to male violence) isn't this just another form of men not being able to have or show feelings which is part of the problem?

In a thread on male violence against women, let's focus on men being violent against women. It's what we are talking about. We're not going to solve all the evils of society, and it'll be more productive to just limit ourselves to the topic. We have some good suggestions, and good pointers from women talking about what they experience.

I don't think anyone has to risk life and limb on this, and I'm not getting the message that women want us to swing in like Batman and Robin to sort out the bad guys. It's a matter of raising awareness and, and helping create an environment where men will feel there will be consequences for harassment and violence. There things that we can do. Just having more people around and more obviously aware of what's going on in their surroundings would be good.

I remember walking alone through Brixton at night around the time of Operation Swamp, trying to make myself invisible. Really hoping that no one would notice me - for people who weren't around at the time, that was right at the start of the 80s, when Brixton was turned into a bleak nightmare of a place by misguided police tactics and continual hammering home of the idea that no one should ever poke their noses outside their door by government and press. Then I compare that to what happened after the smoking ban was introduced, and suddenly everyone had to smoke outside on the street. My God, the difference! Friendly, busy people using the streets. For the first time in South London I felt totally safe (bearing in mind I'm a man) walking in the small hours.

It's having people around, people who acknowledge your existence, that's going to make the difference. So instead of huddling in the corner of your bus seat staring at your phone with earbuds in, perhaps sitting with an air of "I'm here, I'm aware of what's going on, and if anything happens it will be noticed" might help.

Fripp - yes, sorry, I'd remove the word 'aggressive' and use the 'hostile response' that you used.

I will maintain though that there is nothing 'hostile' about focusing on male violence, without a requirement to attend to the needs of male victims. We are allowed to project the safety of women - it isn't a competition for resources, is it? Just about everything we have talked about here is "attitudes" rather than resourcing, which we haven't touched on as yet.
Just - that account sounds graphic! yes as men we need to take precautions in certain circs but nothing like the need for precautions that women are required to make.

Something else - how about using licensing authorities in the way we use them to close down pubs and clubs that attracted drug supply, fighting and general anti-social stuff. So IF your establishment gets regular complaints from women about treatment, and enquiries/evidences support them, then they are at risk of loss of licence unless they improve?
Hitting the pockets is a really useful technique when change is needed. I've never heard of this being applied anywhere. Anyone?

Just - that account sounds graphic! yes as men we need to take precautions in certain circs but nothing like the need for precautions that women are required to make.

Not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't clear enough. I was suggesting that signalling you are part of what's going on, present in a real sense and noticing what's happening could help create an environment in which men are less likely to feel they can get away with stuff.

I may be totally wrong.

Pan2

I didn't use "hostile response" either.

I have said that calling people names because they don't automatically have the same view as you is wrong (thin skinned) and how is that gong to help anyone in a discussion.

That a man can say that he has had the same/similar/relatable experience as a women when abused should be used to not just to say 'men go through this too' but to get other men to relate to something that another man has gone through it.

JustSpeculation

I think that what you are saying (I could be wrong) is that we need to show a united front.

If we all become more aware of this then we can stand hand in hand to oppose it.

@NiceGerbil

I'm a woman so not sure if I should post!

It kind of runs through society, a casual misogyny but also a 'not my problem' mindset.

And I know that it's really hard for men to challenge other men at work etc.

But stuff like.

If there's a rapey joke or talking about a passing woman's body then don't signal any approval. Don't need to say that's out of order or have a row. Just. Wander off if it's at work. Don't smile. Look po faced...

If there's a woman at work and a man says something sexist then support is appreciated. The amount of times I've pulled a man up on something they said, he argues, and loads of blokes stand around looking uncomfy. Then find you after and say how awful he was. Just. I agree with her. Or. That's out of line.

If you're in a pub or somewhere and see a bloke hassling women then tell the staff. No need to get involved. That's easy.

I would think that if eg I was on a tube station or somewhere and a man came up and said there's a girl over there and that bloke won't leave her alone and she looks worried I don't suppose you could check on her. I think it would be better from a woman. I would say oh thanks great and go off and see what was happening.

If there's serious stuff happening then call the police. Shout I've called the police if you want. Again no need to go steaming in.

Stuff like that.

Loads.

You see a bloke staring at a woman on the train. Make eye contact with him. Let him know you've seen. DH did that to s man watching porn in s family cafe once and he looked sheepish and stopped.

The little tiny things that add up to a sense that no, this is not acceptable in our society, is the only way to get things moving I think.

Sorry that was long. Don't know if useful.

Yes, useful. Thank you.

The little tiny things that add up to a sense that no, this is not acceptable in our society, is the only way to get things moving I think.

This makes sense to me. I agree so much, I'm going to paste it again:

The little tiny things that add up to a sense that no, this is not acceptable in our society, is the only way to get things moving I think.

I still agree with it.

@FrippEnos

JustSpeculation

I think that what you are saying (I could be wrong) is that we need to show a united front.

If we all become more aware of this then we can stand hand in hand to oppose it.

Yes, in a way. We have to build enough sense of being together, being less isolated from each other, and the way to start this, perhaps, is body language which says I'm here and I'm noticing things. In a friendly, non-threatening way, of course.

It starts in the home.. how a father treats his daughters. Get that right and women ,girls have a chance. It's sad that women and girls feel threatened when out. Teach your sons to cross over the road, instead of walking behind females, which can be scary just hearing footsteps behind you. Schools could teach boys to be mindful of their actions and words. Nothing has changed since I was a teen.

Stout and Fripp, have you thought about starting your own thread instead of trying to make OP's into the one you want and telling him he is part of 'the problem'. This is a specific subject being spoken about here. Why highjack it because you don't like it?