So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying?

[Pan2]

As a major on line source of voice via MN do we have a dadsnet view at all?

Triffid1

Surely the answer is not for people just to step in but for everyone to report the person repeatedly to HR/management?

Dadalus

But your solution is the same as AlexaShutUp's DD buying rape alarms, it doesn't address the issue of male violence and puts a responsibility on women.
But it may have the benefit of increasing those put in prison.

Just another couple of thoughts on this.

We still as a society applaud and support violent and aggressive sports, I realise that aggression and sport often go together but are called drive or whatever to make it seem more acceptable.

and people still go out of their way to separate and excuse celebrities from their actions.

to the extent that rapists, abusers and spouse beaters are still supported.

I like the fact that this has come out into the open and is being discussed and debated. That’s healthy and can only help all of us (men and women) to better understand each other. However I do not think for a minute that violence against women will ever be eradicated through this or even reduced. It is what it is since the beginning of time. Women will always have to watch their backs. As long as there is innate violence amongst human beings so some of that violence will be targeted towards women as we are physically weaker and more vulnerable, but also because we are the opposite sex who from being subjugated endorses men’s’ superiority complex. Men are more aggressive and competitive and egotistic and although in most men within civilised society that is safely re-directed (through sport, status, work), will always in a few result in oppressive behaviour towards women.

@FrippEnos Surely the answer is not for people just to step in but for everyone to report the person repeatedly to HR/management?

Yes and no. The example I gave specifically was of a client. I also said that in the perfect world, such a client would be ditched by the firm servicing him. In the less perfect world, the men in the office would actively support the women in the office who have to deal with him.

The whole, "report to mangament/HR" thing just avoids responsibility and is often just not practical (as in my example). Also who should report? The women who experience his creepiness directly? What if the man sees it? Is he obligated to report it or does he take the view that if the woman doesn't report it then it doesn't matter? And what does the report say? "at a bar for after work drinks his hand lingered slightly longer than I was comfortable with"? Even if this person worked for the same company as you and therefore could be reported, this isn't going to go anywhere, let's be honest.

But when I shake his hand off and said creep says, "oh, don't be so sensitive" or "I was just trying to be friendly", the reality is that a man in the same group saying, "Hey Dave, come on. Stop it" helps because otherwise the woman just looks like she's being "hysterical" and "over sensitive"

The point I was making was that if men want to help then that means getting directly involved and not waiting and relying on "management" or "HR" or "police" or "society" because it's relentless but often low level.

The point I was making was that if men want to help then that means getting directly involved and not waiting and relying on "management" or "HR" or "police" or "society" because it's relentless but often low level.

This makes sense to me, but it would involve men being better at reading situations than they often are. Women are often better, I think, because they have been raised and trained to do it in a way that men may not have been.

@JustSpeculation

The point I was making was that if men want to help then that means getting directly involved and not waiting and relying on "management" or "HR" or "police" or "society" because it's relentless but often low level.

This makes sense to me, but it would involve men being better at reading situations than they often are. Women are often better, I think, because they have been raised and trained to do it in a way that men may not have been.

This is true to a large extent. But I think if there's one thing that has, hopefully, changed recently is that men are more aware between MeToo and Sarah. So next time the women in the office say, jokingly, "oh no, we have to meet Client X and he always gets so letchy after a few drinks", other men can be on the alert. Or when they see the 50 year old married colleague chatting up the 22 year old receptionist, they will know to go over and interrupt because honestly - do you really think she's interested? Women are telling you the signs to look out for, often signalling directly, and men are now listening so hopefully can act more often.

This makes sense to me, but it would involve men being better at reading situations than they often are.

Also, to add to this - it's not about reading situations as such a lot the time. It's about accepting that certain things aren't okay. Men have always seen other men acting inappropriately, but they thought it was okay because the woman wasn't screaming. Or they thought that it was up to the woman to say "No".

If, as this thread suggests, men are doing more to actually think and listen then they'll have the tools to look at a situation and know it's not okay.

@Triffid1

Yes, I agree. But failing to see something as inappropriate is part of what I meant by not reading situations.

[quote JustSpeculation]@Triffid1

Yes, I agree. But failing to see something as inappropriate is part of what I meant by not reading situations.[/quote]
I hear you. All I'm saying is that this is what MeToo and the current communication is about - now you do know. So hopefully men can and will act.

Triffid1

I can see where you are coming from, but we could all be doing more to make sure that these people are not kept on as clients and employees, and both your management/hr and the other firms management/hr also have a responsibility to protect those that are employed by them even by proxy.

As for who should be reporting them the answer is everyone that sees that this person behaves in an inappropriate way.

As I have posted on this thread this needs to be a societal thing, and we need to stop giving these people a way out.

By all means allow them the chance to reform and be better, be we have to show that this behaviour is not acceptable.

@FrippEnos the question now is will men like you and others who are asking these important questions do it? Hopefully these sorts of discussions lead to change. And next time such a situation comes up, the reaction of the men in the room will be different?

Triffid1

And if men report these things in enough numbers then other men will have to take notice.

And even more importantly there should be a change in that employing or having these men as a client should be seen as a bad thing especially if we stopped using the firms that employed them it would change even more.

I am very glad that men are having this overdue discussion, to those saying what more can l do than give women distance, not stare etc;

Call out the pub/locker room banter, challenge the friend who catcalls a young girl on the street.
Don't laugh when after a few drinks one of the group say 'phwarr l'd give her one', maybe funny to the group but is frankly frightening to be the woman/girl on the other side.You may think x is being a drunken idiot, she is thinking 'oh god is he going to try and follow me outside and rape me'
Resist the urge to constantly comment on womens appearance/ make comments about her body.
Don't touch.

Call your friends out, call your boss out, step up and defend respectful speech and behaviour.
It takes courage but until every decent man refuses to smile and look the other way and instead tells his friend/brother/son that they are behaving like an ass, and really means it, things will never change.
Sadly women know all too well that predatory men will never curb their behaviour because women complain, as they don't respect or like us, but WILL listen to their peers, and certainly don't want to be shunned.

Lastly take the time to teach younger men and boys how to treat women well, tackle porn /rape/abuse/coercion with your sons bluntly and firmly and often to compensate for the deluge of misinformation.
Thank you for reading.

Thanks for all the posts from the women here, despite concerns it may not be the place to put them. Nope, it's among the best places on MN to put them. It's where the MN menfolk may be reading in particular.

A view that 'but if you're a bloke reading dadsnet then you're not likely to be a bad guy' sort of misses a point imho.

The women's statements here should be reminding us it's ALL the women in our lives who have to make steps to protect themselves: wives, partners, daughters, sisters, aunties, grannies. To an extent that we as blokes simply don't have to day-to-day - we just don't experience the same threat level. It doesn't affect us in anything like the same way. So reading this stuff is educative for us all, I think.

So IF we think ourselves as one of the 'good guys' then we should be asking ourselves 'how do we express that, to make a difference?' Not just to our own women in our lives, but to every woman we have any contacts with.

What a great discussion - and I'm really impressed at how respectful it is, on the whole, of differing experiences and viewpoints. Rather different to one on AIBU at the moment, lol.

DH and I had a bit of a revelation early on in the first lockdown. Social distancing came very easily to me. I am constantly aware of other people, how I might impact on them, how they might impact on me, subconsciously increasing distance between us. With DH, he barrelled on regardless, despite meaning to do the right thing, and being very covid aware. But he hadn't had it generationally drummed into him - don't take up space, don't get in men's way, keep yourself safe - so I was having to point out to him potential issues, sometimes having to pull him out the way - I felt like a bleeding guide dog at times! And thinking about it - that was the difference. It was part of his privilege as a male not to have to be constantly thinking about this, to the point that it becomes sub-conscious.

With reference to female DV against men - I agree it's not taken seriously, and it should be. We've had issues with this in our family, and the police have not taken it seriously. I wonder if the same officers who don't take that seriously are the same ones who tend to think that women are likely to be liars about rape, should have kept themselves safe, etc, because of the stereotypes of the sexes they've internalised. Men should be big, strong, dominant, and can't possibly be victimised by a female.

Pan2
So IF we think ourselves as one of the 'good guys' then we should be asking ourselves 'how do we express that, to make a difference?' Not just to our own women in our lives, but to every woman we have any contacts with

I would like to add to this that it should also be about how we interact with other men (boys, and teenagers) in that we should be modelling not only the behaviour that we want but putting it forward as the way that it should be.

@FrippEnos

Pan2 So IF we think ourselves as one of the 'good guys' then we should be asking ourselves 'how do we express that, to make a difference?' Not just to our own women in our lives, but to every woman we have any contacts with

I would like to add to this that it should also be about how we interact with other men (boys, and teenagers) in that we should be modelling not only the behaviour that we want but putting it forward as the way that it should be.

Absoballylutely! I really think that is the way to sew the seeds.

DH and I are thinking of joining a mentoring programme, and they're crying out for men to do this, for those that don't have many, or good role models in their lives.

Sorry, that was to Pan, I should have kept my schnoz out.

mbosnz

As Pan2 posted this needs to be an inclusive discussion.

And TBH its a discussion that isn't worth much if it doesn't have the experience of women to focus it.

Its great to see discussions like this. I’m a woman so havent joined in to date but I think re the don't just observe at work initiatives like this are a really positive move - this law firm has taken a ‘no bystanders’ approach, making it mandatory to report harassment you see (I’m in oz) www.afr.com/companies/professional-services/law-firm-s-no-silence-policy-on-sex-20201117-p56f9f
The sports for my boys is a huge concern. Of course playing sport is good for them, but the school sports culture may not be so much. I have clear memories of going to my now dhs school and amateur football and dads would be on the sidelines shouting ‘just fucking kill him then!!’ Berk. There is a high risk I become one of ‘those women’ to the school dads if that’s what I see when my boys are old enough for high school. I wish the dads could think that maybe they could be different. If the culture didn’t accept that then they would mostly just change. Most men are capable of adapting their behaviour to whats culturally acceptable, I’ve seen that working on trading desks and in investment banks. I’ve seen guys tear the arm off a chair and throw it across the room, they let themselves do that because they know it’s ok. The situations where that isn’t ok, it wouldn’t even cross their mind. Behaviour is very situational and more men need to change the culture to change what’s acceptable.

@Yellowshirt

I was abused by a woman. I had no support from anyone including the police. The BBC especially in the past 10 days on radio 5 seem to forget male victims of abuse. They were even talking this week about curfews for men after 6pm. I have become more aware of women whilst out walking and trying to keep a bigger distance. I don't really no what else I can do. I wouldn't be comfortable with a bloke making sexual remarks or slapping a women's backside but I would also be nervous about stepping in.

I'm behind on this thread, but wanted to reply to this post because I've rarely seen someone post about having been abused (in any way, by anyone) and be dismissed in such a way, even if it some would see it as derailing the thread.

I'm sorry you went through that.

Pan's response (or lack thereof until called out on it) is symptomatic of part of the problem for me. How can men be expected to empathise or understand women's feelings when they're continually told to pretend not to feel anything at all, and worse, dismissed when they say they do?

indigo - just seen your post, and I'm a bit surprised. Nowhere have I said or intimated men should pretend to not feel anything, or be dismissed when they raise issues.
I haven't trawled back but I am pretty sure I expressed regret that this had happened to yellowshirt. I can utterly empathise as I too had been attacked by an ex-partner (fists and all) when she wrongly assessed that I had been out a party and being unfaithful, when this was so very far from the truth.
I was quite curt in that post as I recall, something like "this isn't about you, or your experience.." which I'd posted as a huge amount of discussion on MN and elsewhere that essentially diverted attention away from the question of male on female violence. Same as on another thread where a male door staff listed his experiences of being attacked by women.........though this was outwith what the thread was about (notallmen).

The day-to-day womens experience is so far different to men's generally it is breath-taking, and is usually involving precautions that men never have to make or think about. So when the death of Ms Everard triggers a national complaint from women about how male violence and the threat of it affects their lives so monstrously, the very least we can do as men is listen, without having to elbow in and say "what about me?" That's just basic stuff.

Yes, men like me and yellowshirt and lots of other men have been attacked and some men live with it regularly. If one feels strongly, do something about it. But I'd respectfully suggest we don't elbow our way into these women-focused opportunities to do it.

Pan2 - I have think the issue is that you do need to consider the other side to this.

It's not an attempt at thread derailment but if we also don't look at the behaviours being faced by men in domestic situations then we are potentially overlooking a part of what is driving some of the behaviours we are looking to stop (male physical violence towards women).