A Catholic confirmation conundrum!!

[Dontlletmedownbruce]

I can't decide about something so am asking for some MN wise words!

I am Irish Catholic in my 40s. Typical of my generation, Catholicism for me is mass at Christmas and Easter, maybe a few random other Sundays and Catholic celebrations like funerals, Holy Communions, Confirmations etc. I was married in a Church. My children go to the local Catholic school and they have been baptised and had their Communion. These events are not just important to me and DH but they are a big deal for our extended family, people travel to these and get new outfits etc.

I have twins who are due to make their Confirmation and one has now decided he does not wish to be a Catholic and wants to quit. I thought at first it was because the alternative activity offered to non Catholics during practice time was better but that doesn't seem to be the case. Not only does he not want the sacrament but he says he is atheist and that's never going to change. He is 12. If he doesn't have his confirmation this will cause complications if he wants to marry in a church, but otherwise doesn't make much of a difference to his life. He can stay at home from mass when we go. The real complication is I will need to go ahead with the confirmation and the family event for his twin who will get loads of money and fuss and he won't, I will also have to explain to everyone that its not his confirmation just his twins and explain his views. I feel grandparents will be difficult about this and it seems like a lot of unnecessary drama. DH is not too happy about this either.

Truthfully, my gut feeling is he is mature enough to make a decision and we should be respecting that. I actually admire his stance, he seems to have really thought it through and makes a very good case. I just don't want him to kick off on the day or turn around in 15 years and be annoyed with us for letting the kid version of himself make a decision like this. I am obviously his parent and I get to choose, I just can't decide what is the right thing to do here.

I'd be interested to know the views of any others who understand the culture and background. Some of my friends are very anti religion and don't understand at all why this would be an issue because they have elected to raise their children without religion and can be a bit sneery about those of us who have to chosen to do so.

@harrietm87
Yes, but it’s not allowed here anymore.

Most primary schools are Catholic - 88.5% in 2022 although the newer ones are all multi denominational (the figure for secondaries is around 50% I think).
So it could be difficult for children of different religions to get a school place if they gave priority to Catholic children, especially in some areas.

Schools of different faiths are still allowed to give priority to children of that faith, because they are in the minority here.

@user1492757084 why on earth would you do that passive aggressive move on a 12 year old. If he gets to choose confirmation he gets to choose to attend.

Your approach is very much saying I don't agree with his choice and being a dick about it!

Nothing like good old Catholic guilt.

I'm not Irish but I am a west of Scotland Catholic from a town filled with people of Irish descent that thinks it's the 33rd county. I took the sacrament myself and went to Chapel for years. My daughter has just made the same decision because honestly she doesn't believe enough and doesn't want to go to mass every week to do it. Honestly I think she only participated in her communion enthusiastically because of the dress.

I'm hardly a committed catholic myself so don't see the point in pushing the matter and quite a few kids from her school have done the same, which would have been unheard of when I was at school.

The church just doesn't have the hold it had 30 years ago.

If he changes his mind later on, he can always be confirmed as an adult.

It's just that, in Ireland, it's not at all an 'earnest commitment'! It's what is generally termed 'bouncy castle Catholicism' (ie, parents who have their children baptised, and make their first communion and confirmation, because it's still an easy default, and because most of their class at the majority of primaries are still doing it -- because having a party, often involving hiring a bouncy castle for FC, is a thing.)

I completely honour the twin in question's decision, but for the overwhelming majority of children making their confirmation and their parents, it's absolutely nothing to do with religious conviction.

Yes, I agree with @FierceQuiet. These events are more cultural than religious for the majority now I’d say.

@harrietm87 as the others say, its very much changed in Ireland. I think Catholics in UK and NI are much more devout. Our local school takes in any religion and they can opt out, but because a non denominational school opened nearby its filtered to be almost 100% Catholic, however in areas with less school options it would be more mixed.

The religion curriculum these days is quite open minded and they learn about different belief systems, but obviously when it comes to preparing for the sacraments they go full on Catholic for a while. Its nothing like my education in the 80s and a million miles from my parents version. The confession bit, which I always objected to, is now about examining your conscience and self reflection, not guilt, and also the importance of sharing a secret or a problem that's troubling you. Its a lovely well-being focused interpretation.

As @FierceQuiet and @Downerthanishouldbe say, its more a cultural thing than religious. I love the bouncy castle description, that's exactly what it is.

I'm very typical of the cultural Catholics, I personally don't have any faith but enjoy Christmas mass, i love the carols and I married in a church. I put a big value on Catholic celebrations, I already have the date for my niece's Holy Communion next May and I will be buying a new outfit, as will my kids.

I have noted my friends who opted out of religion never thought to replace the celebrations with a non religious version, and I don't agree with this. Obviously their own choice but to me there is something very special about a large extended family gathering. At a Christening a new baby is introduced to the community and both sets of grandparents, aunts and uncles are present, and the same group of people meet again at a Holy Communion and so on. I would hate to lose these traditions, but wouldn't care too much if the religious element is excluded. I think the Confirmation in particular is such a coming of age event, it marks the end of childhood. In my day it was when you were allowed get a perm (ear piercing for Holy Communion!). Its often the last time a child embraces the family before they turn into sulky teens and go off to find their way in the world.

FWIW I don't know why I didn't expect this from DS. When he was only 8 and preparing for Holy Communion we got a call from the teacher. They were doing prayers and there was a line about God creating the world and he started to tell the class about the big bang theory and how the book was wrong. The teacher told him to leave that discussion for another day, but then later when the teacher asked him to do something he said 'I don't want to take orders from a CREATIONIST'. I think everyone had a good laugh about that, but of course we had to have a chat about respect etc. The teacher had a good sense of humour about it all.

@Dontlletmedownbruce Im sure that’s true. I was only responding to someone who questioned why anyone would baptise a 3 year old for school purposes. Outside of ROI it’s very much a thing.

I don’t go to mass anymore but my general perception is that people in England for the most part are not more devout (outside of certain immigrant populations - Polish and some African countries mainly). But to get into Catholic schools you need not only baptism but evidence of regular church attendance, which probably drives at least some of it. I considered doing it for my kids as there are some good Catholic schools near us (and I’ve been confirmed myself) but I couldn’t do it in good conscience as a non-believer. I do get occasional twinges, at Christmas mainly, and I suspect my mum baptised both my kids herself when I wasn’t looking!

@harrietm87 my SIL in UK said the same, she wanted her kids to be Catholics for the fun parts but when it came to it couldn't be arsed with the church attendance and volunteering and all that went with it. They now just fly over to us for our celebrations and keep their heritage alive that way!

Ah he sounds like me, a born atheist 🤣. My children attend a multi denominational school and I know we are very lucky.

I hate the continuous bouncy castlers because it screws up options for others.

We had to fight tooth and nail for a proper multi denominational secondary because x number of children made their communion and confirmation in the area.

I appreciate people like the events but it has a huge impact on access to alternative education options. Needles to say the secondary is over subscribed and atheist and non Catholic kids can't get places🤦‍♀️.

If people where honest it really would set Ireland on having a real option of education.

I think more or less all the new schools are multidenominational now @Marblesbackagain. About 50% of secondaries are so and considering 69% of people said they were Catholic in the last census I don’t think that’s too bad? I appreciate it’s area dependent though.

I’m actually glad I was raised Catholic although I guess I’m Catholic-lite. I’m a million miles away from fundamentalists but it does mean something to me, though I’d be hard-pressed to explain what. It may be cultural as I said above.
I’m not sure I’d have investigated religion myself as an adult if I hadn’t become familiar with it as a child, and I’m glad I have some knowledge of it.

Where at you getting your figures? 89% of schools are Catholic.

And of the so called multi denominational ones openly state in open nights that religion is mandatory subject of course are really catholic 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

I am one of the very lucky people who secured my children and education in multi denominational schools primary and secondary. Very sadly who want the choice don't have it because of the stats saying x number are Catholic. When the reality they are the bouncy castle kind.

DS said pretty much the same thing aged about seven to the loony creationist/Biblical literalist vicar in his old C of E village school when we lived in England, but no one mentioned it to me until one of the teachers did, years later, when we were back for a visit. She said it was hilarious. (My sense is that several of the teachers didn't care for that vicar, whom they found dogmatic and joyless (he would come in every year and try to get the children not to go trick or treating, and was visibly dying to tell the Year Ones there was no Father Christmas, and Christmas was all about the Baby Jesus.)

Ironically, DS got far more religion at his English C of E school from Reception till the age of 7 than he has in a Catholic secondary in Ireland. (He spent the intervening years at an Educate Together primary where only two of his class made their FC and I don't think anyone was confirmed.)

His secondary is historically associated with a religious order and still describes itself as having a 'Catholic ethos' , but defines that on its website as about 'respect for the person' and about 'freedom, responsibility and good human relations in the community', which sounds pretty secular to me. Actually, as far as I can see it's code for 'Look, we'll teach civic responsibility and not behaving like a bollocks and interfaith stuff, and there's a token prayer over the intercom once a day that everyone is free to ignore as long as they aren't rude about it'.

I asked DS what he did while the prayer was on, and he said 'I look out the window with the Muslim guys.'

I'm similar to you @Downerthanishouldbe I am glad of my Catholic roots. It's part of who I am. So what if it's more cultural than religious, its the fundamentally religious people of this world that we need to have concern about.

I'm also glad I gave my children an introduction to religion, if they reject it or choose another faith thats up to them but they know it's there if they need it. And sometimes people really do need it

The 89% is at primary level. I was talking about second level as I said.

That 50% is fiction as I said earlier I spent three years visiting 'multi' schools in north Dublin. In my experience the only option that is genuinely multi is Educate Together, which are very short on the ground.

The ETBs are an absolute work of fiction! Crucifix in rooms, Mass for graduations, Religion mandatory subject that is multi d in name only.

Religion and education should be separate. Then we would see exactly how many people want to put the work in to remain in their faith.

@Marblesbackagain
You’re right.

I looked into it a bit more and there’s actually a lot of confusion here. I got the figure I quoted earlier from news reports but I also think people including me (and journalists) are mixing up multi and interdenominational schools. Interdenominational simply means Catholic and Protestant ethos, ie Christian.

As regards the ETBs it seems the majority are inter, not multi denominational at primary and secondary level according to one report quoting the Dept of Education in 2020. But this is not consistent with other statements (by Ministers, their own website etc ) to be multi denominational? So I think that’s why people are confused.

There is also a difference between designated and non-designated etb schools.

The 50% figure ( it’s actually a bit less) is for schools with a declared Catholic ethos at second level. But it seems many more do have a Christian or Catholic ethos even though they are or were declared to be multi denominational.

Change is very, very slow it seems.

https://teachdontpreach.ie/2020/02/shifting-etb-ethos/

@Dontlletmedownbruce it is very challenging to secure a child a secondary place outside a religious ethos in Dublin so I can only imagine it is virtually impossible outside.

I found visiting schools so frustrating as most were very disengenious. Claims they were fully open to non religious learners. But when you dug into it a little every single celebration involved a mass, it was like the Fr Ted episode!

Assembly, prayers, pupil awarding ceremony, prayers, graduation mass no alternative event. Honestly it was so bad it was darkly humourous.

The government announcement of x number will be inter/multi is in fact in name only. Unless the school is established from an alternative ethos I don't believe it will change.

Even the co-host options are challenging with the row to keep the parish priest off the board of management team. 🤦‍♀️

I’m confused by those saying that it would be cruel to not give the other child money etc. what would you be giving the money and fuss for? One twin is making their confirmation - for which you receive gifts and fuss. The other isn’t. For me it’s similar to birthdays. If it’s your birthday you get the fuss attention and gifts if it’s not you don’t. It’s not about punishment. There is no event for twin two @FierceQuiet

I would imagine @BliebenBlieben because family don't want to be quite frankly a dick.

They are twins, one has chosen a religious ceremony. It culturally attracts cash gifts usually totalling up in the four figures here in Dublin. So not giving it to the twin who has made a conscientious decision should not be at a disadvantage.

Compatible to birthday or wedding is ridiculous in my view as one everyone has them and second is when they are adults.

@Marblesbackagain but the gift is FOR the confirmation. It’s not just a random gift. If you’re not making the confirmation you don’t get a gift.

Well if you want to be that big a dick to a 12 year old go ahead. ,🤷‍♀️

My family gave money to my children at key milestones without the milestone as they said it wasn't fair to them as their cousins are Catholic. But my family are not dicks🤷‍♀️

Why should those who have faith get a gift, surely the Christian sacrament is the gift?

Good old Catholic hypocrisy 😂

@Marblesbackagain I would wonder if you’re doing your children any favours with that approach - here you go have some money to celebrate how you did nothing. One child gets a degree the other doesn’t - everyone gets a graduation present. One child passes their driving test the other doesn’t but sure let’s go for a meal to celebrate the one who didn’t pass! No wonder children/teens these days have zero resilience.

@BliebenBlieben how many children get driving licences or degrees last time I checked they were adults 🤦‍♀️.

They are getting the money on par with their cousins who are all bouncy castle Catholics. So my family right the hypocrisy in this lovely green isle.

There were no assemblies at my kids schools, primary or secondary. Unlike their English state primary school - which would have a couple of hymns now and then. I don't recall anyone ever objecting , even though many of the pupils families were atheist, Muslim , Hindu etc. Our children learnt about Eid and Diwali . Our Sikh neighbours had a Christmas tree. England is a secular state which is culturally Christian still. Ireland is on the same path more or less. Yoga in the parish hall....