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Gender critical in Ireland

1000 replies

Muppetryofthepenis · 11/06/2022 16:57

Just wondering if there are many others out there. Was reading a political pamphlet and it was going on about self ID and how important it is. I just don't agree and think it's so damaging to change the definition of what a woman is. And the definition of a man too, I guess. Sex based rights are under threat in Ireland. Fed up with all the nonsense. Wondering what other Irish mumsnetters think.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
Commentqueen · 15/07/2022 11:11

EarringsandLipstick · 14/07/2022 20:47

Your post is confusing. How are you avoiding these issues - they are everywhere in Ireland? (Take the recent Liveline / Pride furore, for example).

I also think you've conflated a load of issues, eg mentioning homophobia & transitioning (not related at all)

Regarding the schools, thankfully the gender ideology hasn't, broadly permeated there - certainly not primary schools, while secondary schools tend to deal quite practically & pragmatically with situations where they arise. Quite different to some of the UK school situations, especially where Stonewall has become involved.

I genuinely haven't come accross anything, my family all have kids of a similar age to mine & my friends children are all young.. I realise laws have been changed in regards to trans but that's all I'm personally aware of.

Roseglen84 · 15/07/2022 12:31

EarringsandLipstick · 14/07/2022 20:47

Your post is confusing. How are you avoiding these issues - they are everywhere in Ireland? (Take the recent Liveline / Pride furore, for example).

I also think you've conflated a load of issues, eg mentioning homophobia & transitioning (not related at all)

Regarding the schools, thankfully the gender ideology hasn't, broadly permeated there - certainly not primary schools, while secondary schools tend to deal quite practically & pragmatically with situations where they arise. Quite different to some of the UK school situations, especially where Stonewall has become involved.

There is a relationship between homophobia and transitioning children - many of the young girls who want to transition are actually lesbians who are uncomfortable with their sexuality. Kiera Bell and other de-transitioners have talked about this.

Also, a whistleblower at the Tavistock clinic in the UK talked about how even the clinicians spoke of 'transing away the gay'.

Stonewall and other trans organisations talk of same sex attraction being hateful and bigoted, and instead push same gender attraction, which of course is nonsense as you can be whatever gender you choose.

EarringsandLipstick · 15/07/2022 14:56

I genuinely haven't come accross anything, my family all have kids of a similar age to mine & my friends children are all young.. I realise laws have been changed in regards to trans but that's all I'm personally aware of.

I'm not necessarily talking in relation to kids.

Do you not read a paper or listen to the news? The Liveline / Pride issue was discussed everywhere.

The wider issues are consuming many column inches eg a full page response piece plus letters in the Sindo two weeks ago.

How on earth do you not hear the different viewpoints being raised?

EarringsandLipstick · 15/07/2022 14:57

@Roseglen84

Sure. I realise that - I don't the poster I was replying to meant that as she seems singularly unaware of any of the issues.

EarringsandLipstick · 15/07/2022 15:18

I realise laws have been changed in regards to trans but that's all I'm personally aware of.

That's not a very accurate way of putting it.

Here's some information: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birthfamilyyrelationships/changingtooyourpreferredd_gender.html

It's also in place since 2015 (so not exactly recent)

Commentqueen · 15/07/2022 15:44

Sorry I joined this thread, I won't contribute any further @EarringsandLipstick .
Yes I do watch the news, don't read the paper as have an indo subscription.. I tend to read the headlines, war in Ukraine, British news, Northern Ireland etc.. I asked for information on this thread as I said I'm very out of touch on the matter... Sorry I did now!

Roseglen84 · 15/07/2022 17:01

Commentqueen · 15/07/2022 15:44

Sorry I joined this thread, I won't contribute any further @EarringsandLipstick .
Yes I do watch the news, don't read the paper as have an indo subscription.. I tend to read the headlines, war in Ukraine, British news, Northern Ireland etc.. I asked for information on this thread as I said I'm very out of touch on the matter... Sorry I did now!

Please stick around if you feel like you are getting something from this thread, some posters are just more confrontational than others, it's best to just ignore and pick out the things that are useful.

To be fair, I had no idea about these issues until recently, and wouldn't have realised what is going on if I hadn't read things certain in the Times and on MN.
Also the furore about JKR and what she supposedly said got me interested. People aren't really talking about it in real life, not that I have experienced anyway. I think that's very much the governments plan, that it goes under the radar as much as possible, which is very sinister.

Even the Liveline discussion seemed to be framed as trans rights under attack, which is the modus operandi of the activist groups, and the media just follows along. No nuance or balance in the discussion at all.

Like you say, there is so much else going on in the world, it can appear not to be of interest to many, but I believe that are lots of women for whom this is a big feckin deal as our legal status is on the line. But to read the headlines it's very much 'nothing to see here, just a niche issue and a bunch of whiny women' blah blah, which is what the vested interest groups want to maintain.

EarringsandLipstick · 16/07/2022 08:03

Commentqueen · 15/07/2022 15:44

Sorry I joined this thread, I won't contribute any further @EarringsandLipstick .
Yes I do watch the news, don't read the paper as have an indo subscription.. I tend to read the headlines, war in Ukraine, British news, Northern Ireland etc.. I asked for information on this thread as I said I'm very out of touch on the matter... Sorry I did now!

Well I gave you information 🤷🏻‍♀️

I am expressing disbelief that given some of the items I mentioned are headline news, across all media, that you'd never even heard of them.

EarringsandLipstick · 16/07/2022 08:06

Even the Liveline discussion seemed to be framed as trans rights under attack, which is the modus operandi of the activist groups, and the media just follows along. No nuance or balance in the discussion at all.

It depends where you looked.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the Sunday Independent had a completely nuanced and well-written piece by Eilis O'Hanlon who writes on this a lot, then a full page of responses from readers, almost all in agreement with her.

Twitter had both sides.

In general discourse on the radio, I heard both.

It absolutely depends where you look. Some publications, like the Irish Times, offer no critical analysis at all, and I say that as someone who has read & still does, the Irish Times all my life.

FrancescaContini · 16/07/2022 08:08

I’m not in Ireland - thank God, having read this thread - but feel very depressed on behalf of all women and girls there.

OP - you have the best ever UN, It’s made me chuckle every time I see it.

EarringsandLipstick · 16/07/2022 08:10

But to read the headlines it's very much 'nothing to see here, just a niche issue and a bunch of whiny women' blah blah, which is what the vested interest groups want to maintain

Some headlines, some publications.

The Sunday Times (Irish edition) and the Sunday Independent have offered much more critical discourse - it's not hard to find.

RTE does appear terrified out of its mind to offer any kind of critical approach, and will be even more so after the Liveline issue, even though there was some attempt by them to stand up for independence in broadcasting.

The Irish Times appears to have a clear editorial policy of TWAW, the end, no discussion.

There are also plenty of commentators in Ireland addressing the issues eg Stella O'Malley.

I think it's important not to make sweeping statements without checking if it's the case.

EarringsandLipstick · 16/07/2022 08:16

FrancescaContini · 16/07/2022 08:08

I’m not in Ireland - thank God, having read this thread - but feel very depressed on behalf of all women and girls there.

OP - you have the best ever UN, It’s made me chuckle every time I see it.

What do you mean?

The issues are not just in Ireland!

I work at University, and predictably, the EDI approaches are all about trans-inclusion, using pronouns etc with no hint of GC approaches. I would definitely be uncomfortable with expressing my views, which is v wrong.

However, compared to the UK, it's nearly utopian! Most people just get on with it - there's no pressure re pronoun usage or to actually do anything, the issues with trans-identified students are barely there - in the sense that students are treated respectfully & kindly, and I've yet to come across some of the crazy scenarios that I read about so often here.

When I read about Kathleen Stock, it's chilling. I could happen here but it certainly hasn't and nothing close.

Not saying that means it's all ok - it's definitely not, there's a real lack of critical discourse where it should be happening eg public broadcaster, newspaper of record, our universities.

But your 'thank God I'm not in Ireland' is completely displaced.

In terms of second level education, it is frightening to watch & read the situation in the UK.

Honestly, think a little before you type.

SolasAnla · 16/07/2022 10:06

@Commentqueen the gender recognition act 2015 was introduced after a male took the Irish Government through the Court then to the EU Court, to gain access to among other things a passport which stated the holder was a female not a male.
From this I presume that the reason was the male had undergone radical cosmetic surgery.
Subsequent to this the government passed the legislation.
When you read it it becomes evident that it is was based on that "stereotype", a infertile/ post op male.

Note the section that conflicts with a child rights (consitutional recognition, 2012) to a mother, (whos role is recognised in the Consitution & you will be soon asked to remove that) and a father, after the GRC is issued:

19. The fact that a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person shall not affect the status of the person as the father or mother of a child born prior to the date of the issue of the certificate.

Why did politicians not recognise that a child, born after the GRC, has the right to a factual government document and that this should be included in the law allowing a parent to change their document?

The politicians did think that to its logical conclusion, that if anybody can apply, that at least sometime in the future one baby would need a birth cert with the sperm provider being a legal female or the gestation involving a legal male?
Right?

That clash of rights could not be ignored while the shit over Mother and Baby Homes and illegal adoptions resulted in 2015, adopted children being legislated against when seeking to access their birth certs as it allowed them to trace their mothers and fathers?
Right?

Not while politicians were passing legislation in 2015 about dealing with surrogacy; when legislating on who gets to be named mother and father when DNA is provided by a individual not involved in a sexual relationship, married couples (hetro/same sex), civil partnership couples (hetro/same sex), unmarried couples (hetro/same sex), singles?
Its hard to miss that crossover right?

Because if politicians actually considered that you as a possible fertile, possibilty pregnant woman can promise to live in the gender man/male to be given a GRC and according to the current Attorney General's(?) legal advice, loose all the legislated protections that women were given to protect their economic independance while gestating or even being suspected of being capable of gestation (a bleeder), well they would have included that bit under parents too.
Right?

The 2018 abortion act was "women and girls" only, people with needs for bleeding (2022) and people with needs for breeding (birther and owner of breeding organs) will need specific legislation in the future

Anybody want to follow HSE Cervical Check's example in wording this legislation and replacing "woman" with "person with a cervix"?

“appropriate person” means—

(a) a relevant woman, or

(b) where a relevant woman has died, a dependant of the relevant woman concerned;

“relevant woman” means—

(a) a woman

(i) identified as part of the Review of Cervical Screening as having CervicalCheck cytology review findings that were discordant with those of the original cytology examination in relation to the woman concerned, or

(ii) whose cytology slides were sought, by the Review of Cervical Screening, to be re-examined as part of its review but where one or more of those slides could not be re-examined as part of that review by reason of circumstances beyond the control of the woman concerned,

or

(b) a woman who received a diagnosis of cervical cancer—

(i) who had a screening history through CervicalCheck,

(ii) whose diagnosis of cervical cancer was notified to CervicalCheck,

(iii) whose cytology slides were re-examined as part of the retrospective CervicalCheck cytology clinical audit, and

(iv) whose cytology review findings, following the re-examination in accordance with subparagraph (iii), were discordant with those of the original cytology examination in relation to the woman concerned;

www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/act/31/enacted/en/print#sec2

You did not find, "person with a cervix" kind of akward when you realised what the treatment for that form of cancer involved.
Right?

Now on gender, you have protections against gender discrimination (a throwback to the 70's/80's when sex was a dirty word)

As an employee (1998):
(a) that one is a woman and the other is a man (in this Act referred to as “the gender ground”),

As a member of the public (2000):
(a) that one is male and the other is female (the “gender ground”),

but since 2015 you promise to live in a gender which can apply equally to a female or a male.
Every single protection included in the Equal Status Acts (2000-2022) to provide for single sex spaces eg.

6 (e) the provision of accommodation to persons of one gender where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender

is no longer worth the paper it is written on.

Proof of that is the State placing males in the Womens Prison. The Government and Minister choose to allow that.
The State recognise that solitary confinement is torture so the women in the prison serve as companions to each other and the males.
But that's progress.
Right?

That is why, when there is a choice, the removal of "woman", rather than the inclusion "person with a gender recognition certificate", is the more progressive option.
Right?
If the government remove "woman" they can still sell the story of progressive, sucessful, stunning and brave.
Right?

SolasAnla · 16/07/2022 11:02

EarringsandLipstick · 16/07/2022 08:16

What do you mean?

The issues are not just in Ireland!

I work at University, and predictably, the EDI approaches are all about trans-inclusion, using pronouns etc with no hint of GC approaches. I would definitely be uncomfortable with expressing my views, which is v wrong.

However, compared to the UK, it's nearly utopian! Most people just get on with it - there's no pressure re pronoun usage or to actually do anything, the issues with trans-identified students are barely there - in the sense that students are treated respectfully & kindly, and I've yet to come across some of the crazy scenarios that I read about so often here.

When I read about Kathleen Stock, it's chilling. I could happen here but it certainly hasn't and nothing close.

Not saying that means it's all ok - it's definitely not, there's a real lack of critical discourse where it should be happening eg public broadcaster, newspaper of record, our universities.

But your 'thank God I'm not in Ireland' is completely displaced.

In terms of second level education, it is frightening to watch & read the situation in the UK.

Honestly, think a little before you type.

Ireland has an advantage over the UK as parents have consitutional protections over how their child is educated.
Eg A pro-TR(a) speaker from Tatchell's(?) orgaisation was at one of the primary Union's, claiming that Irish teachers could refuse engage with Irish parents, they can't do that because they must recognise that parents rights include oversight of their child's education. Schools are mostly private, relegious owned, state funded, organisations. Board of Managment are mainly local parents with oversight on ethos from the religious leader.

The majority of primary schools are still RC and gender souls are against church teaching plus the teaching Uni's had a strong christian ethos and the language requirement mean most teacher's came from the Irish education system.

It will be slower to progress because the dep of Education has limited direct control.
But the same as the drive to push the GRC down to children there are factions in Government who will understand the benefit in using legislation to push this agenda.

Be Kind and not think is the big danger.

Roseglen84 · 16/07/2022 11:07

EarringsandLipstick
Honestly, think a little before you type.

Seriously? Your nitpicking of every little thing people say is getting tiresome, you've bullied one person off the thread already.

People have come to this thread to learn about these issues, and at different stages of understanding and awareness of what's going on - just because their experiences don't match with yours doesn't mean they should be talked down to.

Roseglen84 · 16/07/2022 11:10

SolasAnla · 16/07/2022 11:02

Ireland has an advantage over the UK as parents have consitutional protections over how their child is educated.
Eg A pro-TR(a) speaker from Tatchell's(?) orgaisation was at one of the primary Union's, claiming that Irish teachers could refuse engage with Irish parents, they can't do that because they must recognise that parents rights include oversight of their child's education. Schools are mostly private, relegious owned, state funded, organisations. Board of Managment are mainly local parents with oversight on ethos from the religious leader.

The majority of primary schools are still RC and gender souls are against church teaching plus the teaching Uni's had a strong christian ethos and the language requirement mean most teacher's came from the Irish education system.

It will be slower to progress because the dep of Education has limited direct control.
But the same as the drive to push the GRC down to children there are factions in Government who will understand the benefit in using legislation to push this agenda.

Be Kind and not think is the big danger.

Perhaps the situation in our schools is slightly better, but overall I think we are far worse off because the law has already been changed to accommodate Self ID, and will take years to push back on and repeal.

SolasAnla · 16/07/2022 11:34

Roseglen84 · 16/07/2022 11:10

Perhaps the situation in our schools is slightly better, but overall I think we are far worse off because the law has already been changed to accommodate Self ID, and will take years to push back on and repeal.

I agree the GRA is a massive problem.

Plus if the government is allowed to ignore the real problems and allowed to remove single sex provision legislation womens rights are going to be a problem.

The elephant in the room is terrorism and drugs.
Want to get a new name, sex and a passport whick knocks you off the US Treasury’s Office watch list.
Apply and 90 day's later.....

Like, WTF in a country with history, no Garda checking at all???

Roseglen84 · 21/07/2022 09:09

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/20/trans-rights-a-question-of-reasonableness-and-common-sense/

I've nicked this link from the FWR board, but just in case people here want to see it, a really good critique from Michael McDowell, former Minister for Justice.

Unfortunately, our current Minister for Justice doesn't seem to have a lick of reasonableness or common sense and will probably ignore.

She is too busy trying to make it easier to prosecute hate crimes, which doesn't include 'sex' as a protected characteristic, but rather: gender (including gender expression and identity).
Does this mean if I object to a male who has a 'gender expression' (whatever the fuck that means?!) of female, in women's spaces I am committing a hate crime? Ridiculous!

It seems as though our government are hell bend on shoring up bad legislation (Self ID), with even worse legislation (hate crime bill and conversion therapy.

Gubu · 21/07/2022 10:23

I didn't see the link on FWR but I did read the article last night. It's a pity it's behind a pay wall. And while I think it makes useful reading, the fact that it is from Michael McDowell will cause a lot on the left to simply gloss over it and dismiss it as right wing propaganda.

Roseglen84 · 21/07/2022 11:00

That's weird, I'm not signed up to the IT yet I can see it. It does give me a 'you have 2 free articles left this week' warning at the top of the page though.
Maybe if you are accessing from the UK it blocks it completely.

Here are some good parts:

I incline to the view that for the vast majority of citizens, distinction based on ostensible physical sex is very important in many but not all aspects of our social existence. Sex cannot simply be wished away as a concept or as a social reality. The growth of women’s equality as a strong anti-discriminatory movement in the last hundred years demonstrates that distinction between ostensible physical sex is hugely important. While legal and economic inequality for women is being tackled with varying degrees of success, the demands from within the trans community for the large-scale dismantling of distinction based on ostensible physical sex is not necessarily a common cause with feminism.

For the great, great majority, gender-based language, thought, concepts and social convention are really part of what we are – just as central to our personalities as the identity-convictions of trans people are to them. It isn’t a question of thoughtlessness.

That trans people experience rejection as a consequence of our civilisation’s social recognition and distinctions of sex and gender does not confer on them an absolute human right to erase gendered thought and language on a widespread basis.

bellinisurge · 21/07/2022 11:12

I'm in the UK - I couldn't access it from Twitter but I could via the link in the MN thread on it

Gubu · 21/07/2022 12:18

Good, hopefully it's just me who can't see it then. (I find the IT's new and improved interface rubbish. I have a subscription but can never log in from the website, only through the app, but clicking a link never defaults to opening in the app so it sometimes opens for free articles but never for pay walled ones)

PleasantBirthday · 21/07/2022 13:46

That's funny - I'm a subscriber too but can only sign in through the website, never the app.

FionaMacCool · 21/07/2022 21:31

Roseglen84 · 21/07/2022 09:09

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/20/trans-rights-a-question-of-reasonableness-and-common-sense/

I've nicked this link from the FWR board, but just in case people here want to see it, a really good critique from Michael McDowell, former Minister for Justice.

Unfortunately, our current Minister for Justice doesn't seem to have a lick of reasonableness or common sense and will probably ignore.

She is too busy trying to make it easier to prosecute hate crimes, which doesn't include 'sex' as a protected characteristic, but rather: gender (including gender expression and identity).
Does this mean if I object to a male who has a 'gender expression' (whatever the fuck that means?!) of female, in women's spaces I am committing a hate crime? Ridiculous!

It seems as though our government are hell bend on shoring up bad legislation (Self ID), with even worse legislation (hate crime bill and conversion therapy.

I thought this was a good article, and I was wondering if it would show up on MN.
I would have thought that Micheal McDowell, for all that he may be perceived as right wing, would have influence as a Senior Counsel, former Attorney General, former Minister for Justice and Equality. He's a Senator also.
Good to know that, while the issue seems to be blowing one way in the media, there is a more balanced approach being discussed in Bar circles.

EarringsandLipstick · 21/07/2022 21:38

Roseglen84 · 16/07/2022 11:07

EarringsandLipstick
Honestly, think a little before you type.

Seriously? Your nitpicking of every little thing people say is getting tiresome, you've bullied one person off the thread already.

People have come to this thread to learn about these issues, and at different stages of understanding and awareness of what's going on - just because their experiences don't match with yours doesn't mean they should be talked down to.

Late replying, sorry, but what on earth are you talking about?

Give over with your nonsense about 'bullying' 🙄

It's perfectly acceptable to point out that some topics are mainstream news - ie across all platforms, on the main RTE news, in the papers, and it's as such surprising that that poster hasn't even heard of them, and then writes posts expressing a view.

I also shared clear links that she might find helpful - hardly bullying.

And my comments were not at all directed at the finer nuances of GC discussions in Ireland - I'm very much at the starting point too. You should perhaps read my posts before denigrating me.

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