Excess Deaths

[Alexhorner]

Anyone seen this? Ongoing excess deaths remain stubbornly high in the UK. Just read the comments!

But why no mention on the BBC news? No investigation?

I wonder what part Covid has to play in this? If it's not Covid, then what else could it be?

Does make you wonder about the OP and the multiple usernames that post in batches here @SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth

Have all the time in world for conversations about pharmaceutical companies, vaccine policies/mandates, benefits versus costs, drops in effectiveness, are we offering to the right people etc

But when someone genuinely believes that SARS-COV-2 vaccines not only did nothing at all - but that they were actively harmful - it makes it hard to think any useful debate can be had

@leafyygreens

It is really odd how their google only seems to lead them to one certain type of 'research' and never to the countless studies and articles offering evidence to the contrary.

Yes, seriously. Have you any real world data (not based on computer modelling) that shows beyond proof the amazing efficacy and safety of the mRNA Covid vaccines?

You must have some - right?

As has been said - there's replicated data from countries globally demonstrating Pfizer and Moderna vaccine (you specifically seem to be suspicious of those using mRNA-based technology, for whatever reason) effectiveness. This includes, in those vaccinated versus unvaccinated, a lower likelihood of infection, severe illness, hospitlisation and death @Alexhorner

I'm not sure how you could not find a single study by searching online, but here's just one example using data from the US:

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj-2021-069761

The decision to offer an intervention is made based on balancing benefits and costs (side effects but also things like whether resources could be more beneficial elsewhere) - this is done by synthesising all the most up to date evidence on effectivness and safety. It's not possible for a single person to do this, no matter how qualified, which is why ultimately I'm happy to go with recommendations from public health bodies when it comes to what innoculations I should have and when.

I think the fact that you're asking for evidence "beyond proof" that shows "amazing" results demonstrates a lack of understanding about medicine and public health.

Interestingly, your scientific study (which is an opinion expressed by the scientist who wrote it, many of whom if you read the full article have competing interests and funding from the pharmaceutical industry - including the vaccine manufacturers), contrasts sharply with real world data on vaccine effectiveness published by many official channels out in the real world.

Take this real world data study from Australia as one example. It does not look so good now does it:

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/weekly-covid-overview-20221231.pdf

So who is correct, the industry sponsored scientists, or the real world data? Or are statistics being manipulated?

From my own experience, the people I know who have been vaccinated have mostly had C-19 more severely than those I know who have not been vaccinated. So should I believe what i am told by the government or the media, even if it contradicts that which I have seen with my own eyes?

@Alexhorner

Why would you cite a data source that is almost 6 months old and is only a snapshot of two weeks in time? And I'm not seeing what is so troublesome about it, anyway? It records a small Covid wave over the festive period.

This was the last report that NSW health produced that showed hospitalisation or C-19 death by vaccination status. They declined to publish this information in subsequent reports (any ideas why)? Hence it is the most up to date information available.

Still, what does the actual data say about the effectiveness of the vaccines?

Does it agree with leafyygreens pharma funded study above or does it tell us something different? And yes I am aware that the elderly were more likely to be vaccinated, but the general uptake in Australia (fully vaccinated) for those over 12 years old was nearly 90%, as the C-19 vaccines were often mandated for work, school, hospital visits etc.

So then, over to you . . . .

You do know of the seatbelt analogy?
It's the same with vaccination. You can probably find an easy to understand explanation for someone who isn't very good at science or statistics that will help you work it out.
And no, a report covering a two week period showing that more people were admitted to hospital during a festive period and more of them were vaccinated (no shit Sherlock - see seatbelt analogy above) doesn't remotely compare to the ongoing reviews published by the BMJ and similar. You think is shows what you want it to show, but you're wrong.

How many of those hospitalised came out alive?

Seat belt analogy, ha ha ha ha ha!

Do seatbelts often come with severe adverse reactions? What about people who never travel by car? Do they still need to wear seatbelts to protect those who do?

What a clown!

Thought it might help someone with poor understanding of how vaccination works at least make a little progress.

I know how vaccinations work thank you, I've had plenty in my time.

But look at the data from MSW. How can you draw any conclusion of efficacy from that, even given around 90% of the whole Australian population being fully vaccinated. I await with interest.

OP: link to a study, ANY STUDY, that shows SARS-COV-2 vaccines work

PP: sure ,here's one (which links to many more in the reference list)

OP: NO that one doesn't count for xyz reason

@Alexhorner you clearly will swerve and swerve and ignore all the evidence in front of you, so there is little point in engaging.

Incidentally, the data you linked (if you bothered to read in full rather than pulling out random stats) demonstrates, that yes again, SARS-COV-2 vaccines are beneficial to the groups currently offered them

This thread is (originally touted as a wide eyed "why are there excess deaths?" - which you dropped pretty quickly) is just yet another MN hub for fake claims about vaccines

I'm happy to be open minded. Please can you point out in the data I linked to how (as you say) " the SARS-COV-2 vaccines are beneficial to the groups currently offered them".

I must be blind because I can't see this.

A guide about this particular dataset: it also is in a period where positive rapid antigen tests no longer were required to be reported to the Health Department. This means, particularly during a Covid wave, positive Covid numbers in the community were likely to be far higher in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

Onto your question: yes, this dataset and all the dataset that were issued before it do show the effectiveness of the vaccine. Deaths are low in comparison to infection rate. Numbers of infections are also relatively low, and the wave is is smaller than the previous. What the data does not tell us much about is the severity of disease, apart from numbers in ICU. I suspect you're focusing on the 'Deaths' column of vaccination status that reflects the highest amount of deaths in those that received four or more doses, and the lowest that didn't have the vaccination? If so, that's a fallacy: it's simply reflecting population trends at large (most people are vaccinated, so it makes sense that most people on a ward would be vaccinated).

There us a cardiologist raising awareness on this and his data presenting mainly in Covid vaccinated heart attacks and heart troubles. He is one of the best esteemed cardiologist and he foesnt think it's covid but the vaccines even called out matt hancock when hancock was babbing away his usual nonsense and his response conspiracy theory. But this is mumsnet and their denial and cognitive dissonance isn't allowing that part to really sink. It could the the vaccines

@Sunflowers80

There us a cardiologist raising awareness on this and his data presenting mainly in Covid vaccinated heart attacks and heart troubles. He is one of the best esteemed cardiologist and he foesnt think it's covid but the vaccines even called out matt hancock when hancock was babbing away his usual nonsense and his response conspiracy theory. But this is mumsnet and their denial and cognitive dissonance isn't allowing that part to really sink. It could the the vaccines

It isn't.
And the cardiologist you speak of has made a fortune on the back of this - via social media channels, YouTube, conferences, media appearances, columns, articles, and the speaking circuit. Off you, basically. He doesn't represent the medical community as a whole.

Nice attempt at obfuscation there. The raw data does not lie. Even allowing for the high vaccination rate in the elderly in Australia, and ignoring the benefits of any naturally acquired immunity in the population, the vaccinated come off no better than the un-vaccinated. Even putting a positive spin in it, say there were some benefits to C-19 vaccination, then they are very marginal at best - hardly a groundbreaking level of protection is it?

And then there's the risk of side effects from the vaccine which as we all known are under-reported and by-enlarge hushed up. The risks for younger age groups from the vaccine are often greater than the risks from Covid. Yet they will all catch Civid in any case. So a risk from Covid + an added risk from the vaccine.

I note that the much publicised Covid vaccine enthusiast Peter Hotez has refused to debate with vaccine skeptic and American Presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/06/19/joe-rogan-offers-vaccine-scientist-100000-to-debate-robert-f-kennedy-jr-on-his-podcast-scientist-bottles-it/

Now why would you refuse a debate for charity, unless of course you were fearful that your lies were going to be exposed?

Yet the cardiologist in question disagrees with you, but don't let the truth get in the way of your delusion will you:

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1607398849487806464?s=20

The idea of an idiot and a conspiracy theorist calling Peter Hotez a liar is a perfect example of what's gone wrong with people like you who believe yourself to be far smarter than you are.

Peter Hotez is someone Joe Rogan can browbeat because he's a dedicated science and doctor who has devoted his life to public service and whose work speaks for itself. JR is a loudmouthed shyster with a huge audience, no sense of moral responsibility and a belief that the bilge coming out of his mouth trumps fact. I certainly hope he doesn't cave in and debate this moron cabal.

@Alexhorner

Nice attempt at obfuscation there. The raw data does not lie. Even allowing for the high vaccination rate in the elderly in Australia, and ignoring the benefits of any naturally acquired immunity in the population, the vaccinated come off no better than the un-vaccinated. Even putting a positive spin in it, say there were some benefits to C-19 vaccination, then they are very marginal at best - hardly a groundbreaking level of protection is it?

I see you didn't understand my answer.

it's simply reflecting population trends at large (most people are vaccinated, so it makes sense that most people on a ward would be vaccinated).

This graphic very simply illustrates the point @MyLostSock is making

@Alexhorner

*Yet the cardiologist in question disagrees with you, but don't let the truth get in the way of your delusion will you:

twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1607398849487806464?s=20*

Would you expect him to say any less? He's on a global speaking tour. How is he paying for that, then?

@Alexhorner you do realise that BMJ articles are peer-reviewed? So while the article might be written by one person, it will have to have been approved by many others before it gets into print… I can assure you that this process is extremely rigorous, academically speaking.

Also, FWIW scientists have been working on mRNA vaccines for over a decade. The Covid vaccines might be the first to take one to mass market, but the technology is not new. And the recently released malaria vaccine, about which there high hopes, is an mRNA vaccine.

Around 90% of the Australian population is vaccinated. If you look at the data, what percentage of those in hospital with serious illness or death are vaccinated?