Excess Deaths

[Alexhorner]

Anyone seen this? Ongoing excess deaths remain stubbornly high in the UK. Just read the comments!

But why no mention on the BBC news? No investigation?

I wonder what part Covid has to play in this? If it's not Covid, then what else could it be?

There are no credible scientists (i.e., those who have evidence based views and relevant expertise) who believe vaccination of the general population was a mistake @statementstate

I have no idea why you won't just read the primary evidence people link you to instead of just repeating claims from anti-vaccine influencers without thinking for yourself.

I've never claimed to be a "beacon of knowledge", just pointing out that your claim that anyone who agrees vaccination was beneficial is following the government and media is untrue. My views (and those of my collegues) are based on replicated evidence.

"Love of these jabs" just demonstrates a real lack of nuance here. No one is claiming that the SARS-COV-2 vaccines were perfect or had no side effects - every intervention is about balancing risk and cost.

Previously we've had civil and interesting debates about coronavirus policies, it's a shame you're falling deeper and deeper into this rabbit hole.

I tend not to air my views in public. It therefore surprised me when my previous very pro vacc boss declared angrily “it’s these fecking vaccines” after we had two sudden deaths in our team’s wider family.

I was surprised as his stance was completely the opposite two years ago

we have no evidence at all that it is the vaccine or indeed covid, before you jump on me, but I do think that the mindset of the general public js changing

I tend not to air my views in public. It therefore surprised me when my previous very pro vacc boss declared angrily “it’s these fecking vaccines” after we had two sudden deaths in our team’s wider family.

I was surprised as his stance was completely the opposite two years ago

It seems more suprising your boss's first thought at two people suddenly dying was that it's due to a vaccine they last had in 2021... @BeethovenNinth

If the dripfeed is going to be that they had a Spring 2023 booster then I would be pointing out it's tiny minority of high risk people who were offered this, and thus again, it seems strange they would die suddenly from their 5th-6th dose of a vaccine when all evidence demonstrates that if someone was to have a rare severe reaction (e.g., anaphylaxis, CVST), it happens on the first dose.

I think his thought is more there is longer term but under the radar vascular damage. He has had odd atrial fibrillation since his third booster so is nervous.

*leafygreens” if a mainstream scientist was concerned, would they be able to view their views without fear of ridicule or being cancelled?

@leafygreens you are spreading dangerous misinformation - Kate Bingham. Vaccine Task force Chair. said extremely clearly: ""There's going to be no vaccination of people under 18. It's an adult-only vaccine, for people over 50, focusing on health workers and care home workers and the vulnerable"
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-vaccine-idUKKBN26P0YM

You sound extremely tolerant and diverse attacking anybody who understands the principle of informed consent as "anti". I think you'll find plenty of people on this forum (just for starters) who practice birth control. I'm guessing you hunt them down and call them antiBabies, right?

@biokult Ruud Dobber, Senior Executive at AstraZeneca, specifically told Reuters in an interview, that the company was so concerned about significant levels of side effects from the vaccine several years down the line, that they demanded full immunity from any prosecution for this reason. They have NO liability. Imagine if Mercedes, or Boeing said this same thing about one of their new products.

*leafygreens” if a mainstream scientist was concerned, would they be able to view their views without fear of ridicule or being cancelled?

Not sure what you mean by "mainstream scientist" but yes, of course. If you have robust evidence that goes against an established idea, then it is very easy to publish and disseminate this. I know many people who have done so (who actually had good quality research challenging something established) @BeethovenNinth

In the age of social media it's become incredibly lucrative to go against some kind of evidence based policy then monetise a youtube channel/substack, promote a book, charge £££££ to do talks, sell overpriced nutrients.

There are many examples of scientists/clinicians doing all of this and having a far better career than individuals who do not.

There's a reason Andrew Wakefield is a millionaire living a life of luxury in Miami, and plenty are using the pandemic to follow in his footsteps.

“Am a research scientist”

god help us if this is what rubbish you come out with then

what are you researching? Hopefully nothing to do with human healthcare.

@Meshabubu

I have no idea why you're using a quote from 2020 from a politician as some kind of gotcha.

As has been said repeatedly, vaccination was offered to the general population based on the based available evidence at the time. We have robust replicated evidence (multiple countries, multiple sources, multiple research groups) that it was better to be vaccinated than unvaccinated.

I respect everyone's decision to get vaccinated or not, and it's none of my business what someone personally decides.

What I am anti is people pushing fake claims which coerces people out of making an informed decison, and causes uncessary anxiety in those who have been vaccinated ("that vaccine you had 2 years ago means you'll shortly drop dead from a heart attack")

Not too sure why you're bringing birth control into this either, but again, it's none of my business what other people do with their bodies. Though it's worth pointing out anti-vaccine views tend to correlate with anti-choice and restriction of reproductive health care though.

Genuinely interested to know what claims I have made that are rubbish? @AngelasAirpods

Only mentioned my work as a PP claimed people weren't worried about vaccination because they follow the "governement and media".

I pointed out that because of my job I'm able to access and am reasonably qualified to critically assess the primary evidence regarding SARS-COV-2 vaccines. This is why I repeatedly point out there's no evidence to suggest vaccination of the gen pop was the mistake this thread is trying to claim it was.

As with all interventions, I'm very happy to update my opinion of these vaccines (effectiveness, safety, demographic strata who should be offered a booster) if there is good quality evidence to suggest otherwise. This is how evidence based medicine works.

@leafyygreens if you were the expert you say you are and your colleagues all are they experts they should be, you’d not be here with this continuous diatribe of “the vaccines were safe and effective”

As an expert, why don’t you go and analyse the 3400+ peer reviewed studies that show evidence of vaccine injury, disability and death. Then you can come back here and refute them all. Experts can be biased when they are being paid to be, but when you have scientific evidence at every turn that contradicts the initial data, this at least should signal in your analytical brain that things have changed. If you persist with the safe and effective narrative even now when the current science suggests otherwise this indicates your position is to mislead, and spread misinformation (the wonderful work the likes of experts such as yourself use to weaponise against people like me).

Oh and go add, your job doesn’t qualify you to tell anyone what the facts are and what the science is.
Over these few years we’ve seen how experts can very manipulatively lie and mislead when they are bought and paid for.

Not to say that you are, but it’s is to highlight that your job doesn’t give you the credibility you think it does any more. As mentioned there are thousands of experts in the scientific and medical field who oppose everything you say. and they have evidence to back up their claims.

I choose to trust them over you. It’s a simple as that.
Anyone opposed to your stance doesn’t just pluck it from Facebook or thin air, their information comes from people as quailed and even more so than you. You are plainly saying that your view is the science and anyone who opposes it, opposes actual science.

You sound very bitter, @statementstate. @leafyygreens has never insulted anyone, been rude in her replies, and takes the time to explain concepts clearly - again and again. I have found her to be both knowledgeable and credible.

I wouldn't agree that there are thousands of experts in the medical and scientific fields that disagree with Leafy, let alone have evidence, but whatever makes you happy. Choosing to trust them (didn't the common word for them used to be 'quacks'?) over experts who choose the established doctrine of science is questionable at best.

Oh and go add, your job doesn’t qualify you to tell anyone what the facts are and what the science is.

As someone with a MN account, I'm allowed to post on a vaccine thread and point out the things you're saying aren't true @statementstate

As I've said multiple times, l only mentioned I am a research scientist because you said the only reason people aren't terrified is because they're blindly listening to the government and media - i.e. not looking at primary evidence.

I am literally an example of someone who is reasonably qualified to critically assess the evidence that is behind the previous and current vaccine policies. I do not get my info from the sources you're claiming everyone who is not anti-vaccine is.

Have repeatedly said - if there was robust evidence showing getting a booster would be harmful, or that it actually had been a mistake to offer vaccinate to the general population, I'd update my opinion accordingly.

To add - the fact that you keep referring to "the science" just demonstrates a real lack of understanding. Policies are made by synthesising all available evidence, weighting this according to quality, and then conducting various analyses to pool findings and thus make recommendations.

Can you link to any of the thousands of experts and scientists?
It might be more convincing than just insulting people who do link to the opposing side.
Many of us not involved in any way in "science" (I'm an English teacher) would then be able to read both sides of the argument.

Interesting, for me it is the opposite. I, and my close circle of friends and family know no one who has had a particularly hard time with Covid, yet there are several who have had a very bad effect from their vaccination. I wonder how we could be so different?

Perhaps, @Alexhorner, you have different motivations?

We know no-one who suffered any ill effects from vaccinations, either.

As mentioned there are thousands of experts in the scientific and medical field who oppose everything you say. and they have evidence to back up their claims.

This is the most bonkers thing you've posted @statementstate

Feel free to link any evidence that shows vaccination of the general population against SARS-COV-2 was a mistake.

I am sure yes, there are thousands of people claiming they have evidence for this - linking to their monetised youtube channel/substack (John Campbell), overpriced nutrients (Peter McCullough), books (Malhotra), medications (FLCCC), charging ££££ for talks etc

It's just absolutely crazy you are talking about experts being "bought and paid for" when these people make 10x what a standard scientist's salary is. As posted earlier, Andrew Wakfield is living a life of luxury as a millionaire in Miami - plenty are following in his footsteps and the age of social media has made it much easier to do so.

I will never understand why you are so skeptical of those that have mainstream views, yet happy to blindly believe any old claim someone is peddling - ignoring their very clear vested interests- as long as it is anti-vaccine.

To be clear @statementstate I don't want to see any of these "thousands of experts" talking about how they have evidence we're all going to drop dead, I want to see the actual evidence they are referring to (which is what you should be looking at too rather than just copying and pasting their opinions on a parenting forum)

Seems like Elon Musk has had a similar experience to me and my husband:

twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1670274228682096640?s=20

Have you any actual scientific evidence you can post that shows how much of a success the vaccines have been?

I think it’s NHS issues in the main, massive delays in seeing patients. Next to no preventative care. Biggest jump in deaths Is men 50-64 with heart issues. I’d assume this would be a group that would be helped a lot by annual physicals, prompt treatment at a&e and excellent emergency care/ follow on treatment.

Seems like Elon Musk has had a similar experience to me and my husband:”

Oh well, if he said do on Twitter, it must be true 🤣

Seriously?

It does.

Just as it doubles risk of diabetes, accelerates dementia and dysregulates the immune system for a considerable number of months (leading to greater susceptibility to infection and infections being somewhat worse when you get them).

Also one of the parts of the immune system it impacts is p53, which means an increase risk of cancer (role in regulating gene expression and inducing cell death). Other viruses do this too, but covid is the only one which is airborne. Effect can last 4-6 months, and can occur following mild even asymptomatic cases. So if you're getting covid a couple of times a year, you are increasing your risk of cancer - it's not only earlier disruption to health care (though that will be factor in the months when covid was really stretching NHS resources to the limit)