Do you think the NHS will really fire all unvaccinated staff?

[IncompleteSenten]

I just can't bring myself to believe that will happen. Surely it must be bully boy tactics and at the last minute they'll back down.

The NHS can barely cope now. How the hell is it going to cope with, what? 80,000-100,00 fewer staff?

The nhs isn’t going to collapse

For many of us, it already has. So many of us have lost loved ones because there are no beds, no staff, delays for diagnosis and treatment. Don't even dare try to tell us the NHS is still fit for purpose.

Yes

Thank you, appreciate the response. Did people get the sack for not passing? I assume some people must have done.

@Malibuismysecrethome

Completely irresponsible of the NHS if they lose all their staff due to this decision. I don’t see how it is enforceable.

The NHS won't lose all its staff. The vast majority agree with and have had all their vaccines. Those that genuinely are exempt will keep their jobs and those few that refuse will be redeployed where able. There are plenty of non patient facing roles, even if it means a change of career path. But they've chosen that change, this mandate hasn't suddenly been sprung upon us.

Email updates were landing in my inbox over it all yesterday with the process beginning in terms of making sure the data they hold on vax status is up to date and deadlines to have jab number 1 looming and the processes being outlined.

What has mercifully gone quiet is the "booster to be added to this" stuff - which directly affects me as I really really really do not want the booster jab as the first two have left me with side effects I'm still struggling with. If I have to I will see if I can get a medical exemption from the booster but it's a fight that mentally I'm not really up for at present.

In Scotland 1 to 7 Jan
Unvaccinated catching covid age standardised 923 per 100000
3 x Vax catching covid age standardised 1361 per 100000

A pattern that has been the same since the 18th December. Obviously vaccines protect you from serious illness but why would you lose NHS staff when stats like that are appearing?

@Farahilda I mentioned Judicial Review as I think one of the dimensions it could ask government to review would be whether the decision was proportionate, i they hadn't followed the relevant equalities impact or if certain discrimination resulted that couldn't be justified.

That said, it's been several years since I've been involved in Judicial Review and I've not looked at the process by which these Regulations were introduced so I expect you're right.

Care home workers are a vulnerable and powerless group - you can force them out of jobs with very few real political consequences as no one really cares about care home residents (despite all the bleating about 'protecting the vulnerable' - people are happy to 'protect' them by locking them in solitary confinement in their rooms, but when it comes to making sure there's adequate staffing - silence.)

Powerful people - consultants, professors, top execs - within the NHS will find ways around this restriction. Plenty of people will be pushed out of their jobs but the requirement will never be implemented in any real way. It'll cause chaos and suffering, in both staff and patients, entirely pointlessly, then it'll be dropped, having benefited precisely nobody.

I've little confidence in the government's operational abilities to deliver the process correctly though haven't heard anyone indicate there were problems. As you say, the unions have deep pockets though perhaps might be slightly politically conflicted?

@SD1978

We have here- I'm in Australia, and not just for HCW, many industries have. It's worked. We have a 92% rate in over 18's and minimal deaths.

I have family in Australia and they were adamant they were against the vaccine, as soon as their job was in question , they got vaccinated, they are now glad they did, as they caught it but it was only mild.

It applies to all who work in the NHS, not just doctors and nursing staff. Domestics, porters, kitchen staff etc. are also included in this.

One of the porters at our small hospital refuses to have any of the vaccines [ he is definitely a conspiratory theorist ]. He has two weeks to have his first [ by the 3 February ] to comply with having two doses by beginning of April. If he doesn't, he will lose his job.

The Royal Colleges have already begged for the policy to be paused or scrapped. They don't agree with it at all. Which leads me to believe that the government are deliberately trying to weaken the NHS (as they have already done in other ways) to make it easier to dismantle. There really is no other explanation for it.

Those that genuinely are exempt will keep their jobs

It's nigh on impossible to get an exemption.

[quote Zilla1]@Farahilda I mentioned Judicial Review as I think one of the dimensions it could ask government to review would be whether the decision was proportionate, i they hadn't followed the relevant equalities impact or if certain discrimination resulted that couldn't be justified.

That said, it's been several years since I've been involved in Judicial Review and I've not looked at the process by which these Regulations were introduced so I expect you're right.[/quote]
Those are the sorts of things that would be covered by examining the processes of decision making.

But there aren't any barriers for anyone to have the vaccine based on protected characteristics, and also those who are unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons are exempt from the policy. So although if those processes were not followed (omnishambles) there would be censure, I don't think it would get the policy ruled out.

What are the criteria for medical exemptions?

The criteria for medical exemptions are based on advice from Joint Committee on
Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) and the Green Book as well as consultation with senior clinicians.

5 | Vaccination as a condition of deployment (VCOD) for healthcare workers:

Examples of medical exemptions from COVID-19 vaccination could include individuals:

• With learning disabilities or autistic individuals, or with a combination of impairments which result in the same distress, who find vaccination and testing distressing because of their condition and where vaccination cannot be achieved through reasonable adjustments such as provision of an accessible environment,

• With medical contraindications to the vaccines such as severe allergy to all COVID19 vaccines or their constituents,

• Who have had adverse reactions to the first dose (eg myocarditis),

• Receiving end of life care where vaccination is not in the individual’s interests.
Time-limited exemptions will also be available for those with short-term medical conditions (eg people receiving hospital care or receiving medication which may interact with the
vaccination).

The criteria for exemptions is informed by the Covid-19 section of the Green Book.

Isn't it part of the reason there is so much pressure on hospitals? No way to discharge elderly or people with care needs without a suitable care package in place?

That was a problem long before covid.

It's possible to get an exemption, just IME the vast majority of requests we have received don't have the clinical basis for having one that the patient wants. It may be that as the deadline approaches, we'll start to receive legitimate ones....

You are also exempt if you are a participant in an approved clinical trial

MollyQueenofSocks
FTFY
Sorry but I was referring to the NHS and not the private or social care sector. The NHS is the far bigger employer.

@BoredZelda don’t feed the troll.

@TruthHelps80 vaccines dont get "many yeara" of testing to determine whether they are safe. They go through an amount of testing to get regulatory approval and then that's it. The reason vaccines can take many years to develop is largely funding related, or sometimes because of the difficulties involved eg for retroviruses. It's not because there is some prolonged testing phase, or long term study that has to be completed.

@Dontrainonmyparade

But the NHS as an organisation has no say? It’s a government directive and it applies to all health & social care settings, not just the NHS. There is no employer discretion.

This . The NHS DID NOT make this decision, the government did , please don't allow this to be another thing the NHS gets scapegoatted for

@Londonnight

It applies to all who work in the NHS, not just doctors and nursing staff. Domestics, porters, kitchen staff etc. are also included in this.

One of the porters at our small hospital refuses to have any of the vaccines [ he is definitely a conspiratory theorist ]. He has two weeks to have his first [ by the 3 February ] to comply with having two doses by beginning of April. If he doesn't, he will lose his job.

No it doesn’t. It applies to those in regulated and directly patient facing roles.

@BoredZelda

Isn't it part of the reason there is so much pressure on hospitals? No way to discharge elderly or people with care needs without a suitable care package in place?

That was a problem long before covid.

It was, but it's got worse with less social care staff due to being able to get better pay and conditions just about anywhere else for similar entry requirements (except mandatory vaccination), and because those leaving due to the mandate haven't been replaced, and because places are temporarily closed due to covid outbreaks - which begs the question of how covid is getting in and shutting these places down if all residents and staff are fully vaccinated?