Do you think the NHS will really fire all unvaccinated staff?

[IncompleteSenten]

I just can't bring myself to believe that will happen. Surely it must be bully boy tactics and at the last minute they'll back down.

The NHS can barely cope now. How the hell is it going to cope with, what? 80,000-100,00 fewer staff?

We had to let go about 10 across our nursing care home group. It was handled like redundancy so that they had 3 months paid.
Where will the law stand on all those already dismissed there would be huge ramifications if they back down on just NHS staff.

Nobody should be forced to have a vaccine in retrospect. It's completely fine I think for it to be a condition of new employment - because they have a choice - but not for anyone working prior to the vaccine roll out. Nobody should be coerced into having a vaccine or any other medical treatment. I think we are looking at them either trying to privatise medical treatment or just so daft that they think losing thousands of experienced medical staff is a good plan.

I'd much rather be treated and looked after by somebody rather than nobody. I think the vaccines aren't working well enough to make a difference either, people are still catching it and passing it on, even if it is less severe.

I definitely support the right to choice.

@WouldIBeATwat

Well that’s a pretty big drip feed.

What was a drip feed about it? They needed to have the vaccine, they didn't have the vaccine, inline with govt advice they were considered for redeployment, there were no roles for them so they were redundant.

They literally just had loads of people walking in, ten minute interview, very easy questions and were just offering people jobs on the spot, asked what ward and hospital you wanted to work on and slotted in with a start date in march. I was completely caught off guard by being offered a job there and then. I let my registration lapse about three years ago and they were also saying if I wanted to try to get my RN pin back they could help with that too. I just remember thinking it was odd how desperate they seemed to be to get people to sign up. After reading this thread I can see why !

@Babyroobs - congrats and it seems that you're well qualified for the position offered, however, the hiring process you describe above doesn't at all fill me with confidence. How on earth does this ensure that they always hire the most compatible and suitable person for a position?? It almost feels like they're willing to take anyone and everyone just to keep the NHS going.
Sorry, as I said, I understand none of this applies to you, but it's hard to believe that there are 80,000+ suitably qualified healthcare professionals out there who are ready to jump into any job on offer. Even if half of these positions are admin, it's still 40K specialist jobs to fill...
I can see a(nother) huge advertising campaign happening in order to get these people from overseas.

@Lilifer

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431489/Compulsory-Covid-jabs-NHS-staff-delayed-half-year-Tory-revolt-protests.html

Are the delaying the mandate now??

Quick scan only but looks like they’re considering it after all - if turns out to be correct

What was a drip feed about it? They needed to have the vaccine, they didn't have the vaccine, inline with govt advice they were considered for redeployment, there were no roles for them so they were redundant.

Actually they weren’t. People aren’t redundant, roles are. The roles still exist, but they are no longer suitable for them. They therefore are not eligible for redundancy. They would be dismissed for Some Other Substantial Reason and paid notice, not redundancy.

(Prepping letters for staff ready for 4th Feb so double checked all the legals this afternoon.)

They were ' suitable ' for their roles at the start of the pandemic when the sh*t hit the fan and they were working their arses off. How the tide turns. How fickle people are.

I completely agree.

OP, I think the policy will change, either postponement or be cancelled. Losing large numbers of people in April just before Easter and May local elections is not something that I think will happen.

An announcement timed to get headlines instead of the Sue Grey inquiry no doubt.

If they do fire the staff, watch out for the political fallout

So far there has been a steady drip drip of bad news / scandals for the Government.

GE anyone?

Labour will have a field day as will the media

There will be a fudge or a climb down

That is assuming they all don’t go over the border to Wales but still working for the NHS 👍

No.

@WouldIBeATwat

What was a drip feed about it? They needed to have the vaccine, they didn't have the vaccine, inline with govt advice they were considered for redeployment, there were no roles for them so they were redundant.

Actually they weren’t. People aren’t redundant, roles are. The roles still exist, but they are no longer suitable for them. They therefore are not eligible for redundancy. They would be dismissed for Some Other Substantial Reason and paid notice, not redundancy.

(Prepping letters for staff ready for 4th Feb so double checked all the legals this afternoon.)

I actually think they'd be dismissed for illegality, which is also with notice. As it would be illegal to continue to employ them. SOSR does also work.

I'd be very alarmed if they were all being paid redundancy pay, as it's not required and therefore not a justifiable use of public money. I work in the public sector and we're not even allowed to pay in lieu of notice or put people on garden leave, everyone has to work their notice. We certainly would not be able to pay redundancy money in a non redundancy situation, nor are we allowed to make settlement agreements.

@Tumbleweed101

Nobody should be forced to have a vaccine in retrospect. It's completely fine I think for it to be a condition of new employment - because they have a choice - but not for anyone working prior to the vaccine roll out. Nobody should be coerced into having a vaccine or any other medical treatment. I think we are looking at them either trying to privatise medical treatment or just so daft that they think losing thousands of experienced medical staff is a good plan.

I'd much rather be treated and looked after by somebody rather than nobody. I think the vaccines aren't working well enough to make a difference either, people are still catching it and passing it on, even if it is less severe.

I definitely support the right to choice.

How exactly do you think we'd be at a point where we can reduce or even drop restrictions without a vaccination programme? The people not having the vaccine are undermining this possibility.

@Itsnotover I think Omicron is a big part of the reason restrictions are easing. The Spanish flu went from pandemic to endemic with a similar timeline.
Clearly vaccines are great at reducing severe illness in vulnerable cohorts, at least for a few weeks or months. But honestly, they're not nearly as good at reducing transmission as even the experts hoped. They're not the great panacea we all hoped they'd be, let's face it. I still think they have a role. But I actually think it's more nuanced, and not a 'one size fits all'. Personal choice in terms of medical treatment, is so important, and should never be jeopardised.

Yes I think they will sack people. Many in the care sector list their jobs due to being unvvaxx so it would be unfair to them if the NHS kept their jobs.

I agree, if you work in the NHS you should be vaccinated like the majority of patients.

I think they should be sacked but only because the care workers were or else what sort of message does it give.

^ @Itsnotover I think Omicron is a big part of the reason restrictions are easing. The Spanish flu went from pandemic to endemic with a similar timeline.
Clearly vaccines are great at reducing severe illness in vulnerable cohorts, at least for a few weeks or months. But honestly, they're not nearly as good at reducing transmission as even the experts hoped. They're not the great panacea we all hoped they'd be, let's face it. I still think they have a role. But I actually think it's more nuanced, and not a 'one size fits all'. Personal choice in terms of medical treatment, is so important, and should never be jeopardised. ^

Agree with this.

[quote WanderingFruitWonderer]@Itsnotover I think Omicron is a big part of the reason restrictions are easing. The Spanish flu went from pandemic to endemic with a similar timeline.
Clearly vaccines are great at reducing severe illness in vulnerable cohorts, at least for a few weeks or months. But honestly, they're not nearly as good at reducing transmission as even the experts hoped. They're not the great panacea we all hoped they'd be, let's face it. I still think they have a role. But I actually think it's more nuanced, and not a 'one size fits all'. Personal choice in terms of medical treatment, is so important, and should never be jeopardised.[/quote]

Yes, I don't disagree with you either. The vaccines won't work in the same way that most do presumably because it's a coronavirus but they do keep people out of hospital or reduce the time they need to stay there. A big part of why we have restrictions is to stop hospitals from becoming so overwhelmed that they have to choose who to treat.

@VanGoghsDog indeed though it will depend on who 'we' is. Much of acute is non-Crown public sector subject to the rules you set out but I think the majority of primary care employers/the employers of a majority of primary care staff are private sector who could, if they choose, spend their revenue in such discretionary payments provided their owners/partners wanted to make such payments. We won't be and I doubt many GPs surgeries will wither, especially given how financially screwed we all have been. Haven't looked but expect dentistry has been financially screwed more.

There is significant private sector involvement in other elements of the system though expect a plain majority of spend and probably staff are public sector.

I'd be surprised if NHS acute HR relied on stats from their own vaccination programmes to progress the process beyond an initial screen. Although our local Trust got the vaccine first and were keen to vaccinate their employees and their family members first, including back office staff and refused to vaccinate patient-facing primary care, as soon as our PCN got vaccine, acute dropped that activity straight away and we've vaccinated a majority of acute staff with the primary courses and boosters. I would be astonished if bad record keeping led to dismissals given the likely conversation - 'our records show you are not vaccinated, hospital employee.' 'I am, I was vaccinated by the PCN/massvac/?? and here is the approximate date/audit trail/details on my card to enable confirmation'. 'OK'.

Another article with warnings

"Unmet need is “paralysing” health and social care services and the requirement for frontline staff to be vaccinated against coronavirus must be abandoned, a social care boss has warned.

"It said the Government has “seriously misjudged” the balance between the mitigated risk of infection and the risk of people going without vital care.

And it is concerned that the safety and wellbeing of older and disabled people will be “dangerously compromised”.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/nhs-government-dominic-raab-health-mark-drakeford-b978446.html

@SecretDoor

I am one of the people in the unvaccinated statistics despite being fully vaccinated. This is because I use my maiden name at work and my married name on my NHS records . The HR dept of my work place are really struggling to cope with this and I am getting repeated letter/emails which I have repeatedly responded to. They have copies of my NHS pass , and my marriage certificate but they cannot seem to connect the dots, in the letters I am being warned that I will not have a job in April. My line manager is now involved and whilst I fully expect this will be sorted out eventually, it is very annoying and I suspect I am not the only NHs staff member with this issue.

Indeed, once the clerical errors are sorted the number will be much smaller and the militant ones/conspiracy theory type/contains poison/or needle phobes

Obviously where there are clerical errors these will be sorted out and no one will be sacked who has been vaccinated.

The ones who are left (which will be a much smaller number than reported due to above clerical errors) should be sacked if they do not hold a medical exemption. They are not showing loyalty to the core NHS value of putting patients first and so are the sort of people it would be better to weed out of the service.

It makes sense to follow through. I’d say the majority of those people are admin staff or unskilled workers for NHS as opposed to skilled nurses or doctors so you’re not going to lose many skilled staff. Porters, cleaners, admin people are low skill and should be easily replaced.

Any doctors/nurses who are anti vax probably shouldn’t be in their jobs if they don’t understand basic science

@Anotherdayanotheropinon try replacing me and then tell me I'm low skilled....