Do you think the NHS will really fire all unvaccinated staff?

[IncompleteSenten]

I just can't bring myself to believe that will happen. Surely it must be bully boy tactics and at the last minute they'll back down.

The NHS can barely cope now. How the hell is it going to cope with, what? 80,000-100,00 fewer staff?

Lots were employed before CRB/DBS checks

Genuine question (I don't know the answer) did the NHS retrospectively ask their current employees to have DBS checks?

They can try but it will not happen over night and it will face legal challenges. The legal case is weakening by the day as we learn from Omicron.

My reading of the Regs was that it was linked to F2F provision of care by Regulated HCPs so NHS or private sector will have no effect.

I'd be interested in any empoloyer's view of whether they have received any valid 'equalities' or discrimination/protected characteristics or other challenges that look like they might have legs. I read on one of the GP forums that a couple of HCPs thought they had 'water tight' challenges after legal advice but the language they used didn't chime with the legislative situation and when challenged they didn't set out anything beyond a word salad of rubbish. It could be the substance was valid and they didn't understand or it could be hot air.

@HeatonGrove so exactly what 'legal case' do you think would be weakened by the Omicron wave reducing?

Completely irresponsible of the NHS if they lose all their staff due to this decision. I don’t see how it is enforceable.

@Zilla1

We are looking at a change to terms and conditions of service. Employers can change these if circumstances change but the move has to be proportionate. And what looked to be proportionate last year with our limited knowledge of Covid and the way in which Covid vaccines worked (we thought it stopped transmission) no longer seems proportionate today in the light of what we know about Omicron. I forecast a field day for employment lawyers.

I was initially in support of mandatory vaccinations for frontline NHS staff. I even posted to that effect on one of these threads. At the time, it seemed a sensible measure for the protection of vulnerable patients. However, the more I have thought about it, the more I have begun to doubt this position.

The vaccines do help to reduce transmission but they are not wholly effective in this regard. Losing a lot of highly qualified staff in an organisation which struggles to employ enough suitably qualified staff, for limited benefit, seems questionable at best. Then there is the principle of bodily autonomy, though I do think that this needs to be balanced by the patient's right to be cared for safely.

What sealed it for me though was yesterday's announcement. The government is relaxing virtually all public health measures for reasons that are evidently driven by politics, not science. They are also proposing to end self isolation in March, so we are left with a scenario in which unvaccinated doctors and nurses will potentially lose their jobs while vaccinated staff who have tested positive could quite legally provide frontline care to patients while infectious. That makes no sense to me, and it is impossible to justify destroying someone's hard earned career against this backdrop.

I expect the true number is far lower. The vast majority of people working within the NHS have been vaccinated.

@caringcarer

They have received plenty of warning, so yes they should.

Ironic username?

@HeatonGrove thank you. What vehicles do you plan on using to test that argument - Are you looking at employment tribunals after the first claimant has been deemed to have sacked themselves by the employer?

The reason I think it might struggle is that the requirement is set out in Regulations hence the employer who is legally separate from government will just be applying the law as applies to HCPs who cannot be redeployed in to non-F2F roles.

You might need to appeal beyond the initial tribunal to get the substance of the issue looked at. Judicial review might be a way to use the argument you've set out though expensive. Either way, perhaps flawed as there is no likelihood that omicron will be the final VOC.

What sealed it for me though was yesterday's announcement. The government is relaxing virtually all public health measures for reasons that are evidently driven by politics, not science. They are also proposing to end self isolation in March, so we are left with a scenario in which unvaccinated doctors and nurses will potentially lose their jobs while vaccinated staff who have tested positive could quite legally provide frontline care to patients while infectious. That makes no sense to me, and it is impossible to justify destroying someone's hard earned career against this backdrop

Yes, this is batshit.

@SD1978

Also, mandatory vaccination is not new in health care. There are several you have to have, this is just another

Yeah but those vaccines are fully licenced

The law was voted on and passed in December, and is going through the process now.

it's not the NHS decision and the NHS as an employer has no discretion.

We've been told the HR process starts next week. At our briefing, we were told the numbers, and it is bang on the 10%

It applies to all CQC registered premises, so the opportunity to work privately will be extremely limited.

It's going to be carnage.

@babyKat

I live with a nurse and her boss is also unvacc and taking early retirement. I told my friend even if they fire, her, she can work privately and earn £600 a day, so what. there are plenty of private persons who do not care that will hire her. so it is her loss. they are threatening and they wouild be stupid, because when this drama is all over, in a year or two, and all of this is proven illegal by claims to the human rights court, she will be able to sue the NHS for unfair dismissal by the way, any person would have a claim to the EU court, as mandatory vacc is still illegal under the Geneva convention.

You can’t work privately, all private hospitals and services are adopting the same rules.

Yes - they will go through with it.
This government has demonstrated time and again that they are not in the least concerned about the chronic understaffing in the NHS. In fact, by reducing support to training nurses, they seem to want to make it worse. This new directive will of course make the understaffing even more critical.
If you want to make an organisation disfunctional, just starve it of resources, change its mandate and sell it to profiteers.
The pandemic has been extremely useful to those who want to destroy the reputation of the NHS.
By taking out the unvaccinated, the crisis in the NHS gets worse.
Whoopee.

I think they have to unless government policy changes. My husband is an NHS manager and he has told me he will have to lose a good member of his team over it. Staff can be moved to non patient- facing roles if unvaccinated but some jobs just have to be patient- facing so they will have to be made redundant

"NHS HR Director.

We are already in the process of redeploying/sacking those who refuse. April 1st isn’t long to get it sorted in all honesty."

That can't be a pleasant job. I'm so sorry.

@Motorina indeed.

I'd be interested in the (on the face of it small) likelihood of success in challenging an employer for implementing a legislative requirement, beyond any employer's failure to act reasonably in redeploying to non F2F roles. Judicial review of government might be another avenue, before the government restricts that avenue. Expensive, either way.

I'm NHS Senior finance & can confirm people will be dismissed from their jobs.

@HarrietteNightingale

Lots were employed before CRB/DBS checks

Genuine question (I don't know the answer) did the NHS retrospectively ask their current employees to have DBS checks?

Yes

babyKat

'I live with a nurse and her boss is also unvacc and taking early retirement. I told my friend even if they fire, her, she can work privately and earn £600 a day, so what. there are plenty of private persons who do not care that will hire her. so it is her loss.
they are threatening and they wouild be stupid, because when this drama is all over, in a year or two, and all of this is proven illegal by claims to the human rights court, she will be able to sue the NHS for unfair dismissal by the way, any person would have a claim to the EU court, as mandatory vacc is still illegal under the Geneva convention.'

I hope your confidence is well-placed though might be difficult for many to earn £600 a day in a non-Regulated role (unless some private arrangement with a rich individual in need of personal nursing care).
This requirement is in Regulations relating to the provision of regulated care so applies to HCP staff whether permanent, 'bank' or locum within NHS and private sector health care providers. Emigration to whichever nations don't require similar might be an option I suppose.

I'd be interested in seeing the legal advice that shows the employer would be liable for unfair dismissal for applying Regulations. Not impossible I suppose but in the context of other European governments are progressing mandatory general vaccination, I'm not sure success would be likely.

Thing is @IncompleteSenten

Countries won't let people enter who are not vaccinated so why should we trust our most ill and vulnerable in society with unvaccinated healthcare workers? How difficult is it to get a vaccine that hundreds of millions of people around the world have already managed to have.

It's already happened with the care homes. The law requiring vaccination came into being in November.

This page describes the process www.gov.uk/government/publications/vaccination-of-people-working-or-deployed-in-care-homes-operational-guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-of-people-working-or-deployed-in-care-homes-operational-guidance#annex-a

They won't back down. I am a senior NHS nurse and we are loosing 3 staff out of 40. They have until this Saturday to get the first jab in. I have been told they are not going to. We have been advised by HR there are not really any non patient facing roles so will be dismissed.

It is going to be a disaster. We are so short we are counting student nurses in numbers,which is not allowed.

@Malibuismysecrethome

Completely irresponsible of the NHS if they lose all their staff due to this decision. I don’t see how it is enforceable.

They obviously aren't going to lose 'all their staff' since the vast majority are already vaccinated. Maybe they need to work harder on eliminating the misinformation that some of the unvaccinated seem to spread eg nurse on Jeremy Vine yesterday spreading lots of misinformation as if it were true. Sadly that nurse was very misinformed and no doubt some are also. Maybe education and correcting the rubbish some spout would be a start.