Do you think the NHS will really fire all unvaccinated staff?

[IncompleteSenten]

I just can't bring myself to believe that will happen. Surely it must be bully boy tactics and at the last minute they'll back down.

The NHS can barely cope now. How the hell is it going to cope with, what? 80,000-100,00 fewer staff?

The House of Lords debate (Dec 2021) on these regulations shows how deeply flawed they are

lordslibrary.parliament.uk/mandatory-vaccines-for-health-and-care-workers-latest-regulations/

• lack of a full impact assessment
• no explanation on how they will operate
• significant workforce capacity risk
• incomplete assessment of the impact of similar legislation on the Care sector

-lack of supporting evidence for requiring NHS staff to take the vaccine.

The DHSC estimate that 126000 people will lose their jobs for failure to comply at a cost of £270 million pounds and additional costs and disruption at the end of the grace period.

BMA, RCN RCGP all have significant concerns about this legislation.

….And this was all before Omicron showed that the primary aim of the legislation - to reduce the spread of Covid 19 thus protecting the vulnerable - will not be achieved by this measure. We now know that vaccines do not prevent transmission. When this legislation was drafted we believed they did..

Vaccines do protect individuals against serious consequences from Covid, so it does make sense for health care professionals to be vaccinated against the disease. But many health care workers will already have been exposed to Covid.

I think this is another example of rushed legislation which attempts to address a moving target. I sympathise with law makers who are trying to do their best in a difficult situation but this is bad law and should be dropped.

Having read this from Unison on staff shortages this week, I don't want to hear another peep from the NHS on staff shortages because they backed the mandatory vaccine policy. Just like they backed the totally inhumane restrictions put in place during lockdown.

"Nurses, porters, healthcare assistants and other NHS staff tell of their growing anxiety that acute staffing shortages are forcing them to work outside their normal areas of expertise. They also voice concern about the impact of lengthy treatment delays on patient recovery and survival."

@Londonnight“ He’s definitely a conspiracy theorist”. What’s wrong with being a conspiracy theorist? Just because we don’t all believe what the people on the TV tell us and do our own research doesn’t make us conspiracy theorists! It means we have common sense and have the ability to make our own judgment on these things.
My comment has been deleted on here and I have no idea why? Maybe because I said don’t use a certain search engine to check data etc as it’s censored just like everything else to do with covid and the jab.
Deleted. What a joke. I thought we were still allowed free speech. Then again I forgot I was on mumsnet 😂 Censored yet again!
But please remember, not all conspiracies are theories.

@babyKat

I live with a nurse and her boss is also unvacc and taking early retirement. I told my friend even if they fire, her, she can work privately and earn £600 a day, so what. there are plenty of private persons who do not care that will hire her. so it is her loss. they are threatening and they wouild be stupid, because when this drama is all over, in a year or two, and all of this is proven illegal by claims to the human rights court, she will be able to sue the NHS for unfair dismissal by the way, any person would have a claim to the EU court, as mandatory vacc is still illegal under the Geneva convention.

its not illegal and in fact is already a rerquirement for some staff to have some vaccines, the principle is already there. Vaccination is not being made mandatory, it is being made a requirement for certain employment. I don't know if it will happen or not but its not illegal. Austria IS going to make it mandatory and no legal challenge or even a hint of one so far. www.politico.eu/article/austrias-vaccination-mandate-to-apply-from-february-1/

I've had omicron and fully unvaccinated, a heavy cold, fatigue, muscle aches and congestion - 2 weeks to recover.. all ok!

Husband fully vax and experienced the same, just slightly delayed in comparison to mine

Pls don't read scary stories! If you are relatively healthy all should be ok, not nice but ok!!

If anyone is interested, I think the following links are to versions of the employers' guidance and to the Regulations though happy if someone posts up to date versions.

FWIW, most/almost all /all? of the NHS is legally separate from the Crown so when PPs talk about 'they', the bodies that passed the Regulations (government) and the bodies that have to implement them (NHS and private health providers) are separate.

www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2021/12/C1470-vcod-for-healthcare-workers-planning-and-preparation-guidance.pdf

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2021/9780348224993

www.news.bloomberglaw.com/coronavirus/repeat-booster-shots-spur-europe-warning-on-immune-system-risks .... I am fully jabbed & pro vaccines but not pro-mandatory Covid vaccine. It becomes increasing hard to justify compulsion as covid becomes endemic and I think they will ultimately get themselves in hot water purely because of the nature of Covid...how many NHS staff will comply with a requirement to be repeatedly jabbed for the rest of their lives once they have continue to test positive every so often despite vaccines? They are the ones most likely to be mounting a good immune defence as they are most likely to be exposed to the virus on a regular basis. It makes no sense and we need to realign our strategy to promote vaccines for those at increased risk- based on age, comorbidities etc etc. I wish people would stop making the comparison with Hep B - I knew the requirement before I started training, it was one course of jabs and I do not need another one for the whole of my career. Hep B is now being offered as part of the normal childhood vaccines scheme (since 2017) so it has become a routine vaccine. Care home vacancies have doubled since last April (according to a Radio 4 programme I was listening to)and it was already an industry with severe staffing issues.

I was listening to a doctor on GMB this morning, she made the point that if this is all about freedom and choice then patients should have a right to know if the doctor/nurse/whoever is treating them has been vaccinated.

I wonder if vaccine refusers would be OK with that.

@NavigatingAdolescence
In our hospital it is including all I have said. As domestics we on on the wards with the patients, so have to have the vaccine. Porters come onto the ward to collect rubbish, laundry etc. Again they have been told they have to have the vaccine. The same goes for kitchen staff too, who rarely come onto the ward apart from bringing the food trolley.

www.msn.com/en-za/news/other/covid-do-multiple-boosters-exhaust-our-immune-response/ar-AASVYar?ocid=BingNewsSearch

How the current 'booster' and any subsequent 'boosters' are handled will be interesting.

@s1h2o3na

www.news.bloomberglaw.com/coronavirus/repeat-booster-shots-spur-europe-warning-on-immune-system-risks .... I am fully jabbed & pro vaccines but not pro-mandatory Covid vaccine. It becomes increasing hard to justify compulsion as covid becomes endemic and I think they will ultimately get themselves in hot water purely because of the nature of Covid...how many NHS staff will comply with a requirement to be repeatedly jabbed for the rest of their lives once they have continue to test positive every so often despite vaccines? They are the ones most likely to be mounting a good immune defence as they are most likely to be exposed to the virus on a regular basis. It makes no sense and we need to realign our strategy to promote vaccines for those at increased risk- based on age, comorbidities etc etc. I wish people would stop making the comparison with Hep B - I knew the requirement before I started training, it was one course of jabs and I do not need another one for the whole of my career. Hep B is now being offered as part of the normal childhood vaccines scheme (since 2017) so it has become a routine vaccine. Care home vacancies have doubled since last April (according to a Radio 4 programme I was listening to)and it was already an industry with severe staffing issues.

I've wondered about the HepB vaccine. I wonder if existing staff had to have it when it was introduced, whenever that was. So did everyone know they had to have it (new recruits) or did existing staff have to have it as well.

I work in a care home, lots of staff were recruited when other jobs were furloughed or just disappeared. As things opened up last summer I know people who went back to previous jobs. I don't think it is necessarily to do with jabs, well not all of it anyway.

There are four Geneva Conventions, so anyone describing them in the singular definitely doesn’t have any firsthand knowledge of their content.

@getback2normal

I've had omicron and fully unvaccinated, a heavy cold, fatigue, muscle aches and congestion - 2 weeks to recover.. all ok!

Husband fully vax and experienced the same, just slightly delayed in comparison to mine

Pls don't read scary stories! If you are relatively healthy all should be ok, not nice but ok!!

One of my kids had it and it wasn't a problem, 2 or 3 days feeling rough. Another one had it and was really ill, delirious and doesn't remember the phone calls they made to me when extremely distressed.

Neither prove how anyone else will be if they get it.

This subject is inherently contested but this was what looked like an independent assessment of whether the Geneva Convention(s) would provide a silver bullet to mandatory vaccinations

"Mandatory vaccination interferes with personal integrity but may be necessary to safeguard public health. However, states must consider all relevant factors in context and ensure such policies do not place disproportionate burdens on those hesitant about vaccination."

I expect people with more knowledge of the Geneva Convention(s) will understand whether it would have merit as an avenue or defence for non-vaccination.

@howdiditcometothis666

In Scotland 1 to 7 Jan Unvaccinated catching covid age standardised 923 per 100000 3 x Vax catching covid age standardised 1361 per 100000

A pattern that has been the same since the 18th December. Obviously vaccines protect you from serious illness but why would you lose NHS staff when stats like that are appearing?

I think we'd need to know if vaccinated people are more likely to test than non vaccinated. I don't know if they are but I think it is possible that people who are more cavalier about spreading the infection might not test or test as much.

On the other hand are vaccinated people mixing more so exposed to more chance of catching it. Are the unvaccinated in Scotland excluded from certain venues? I've lost track of all the various rules.

The variables make it hard to judge.

@Footnote

There are four Geneva Conventions, so anyone describing them in the singular definitely doesn’t have any firsthand knowledge of their content.

Do any of them a) cover the treatment of any people other that POW, personnel,p who are hors de combat or civilians in areas affected by war? b) are there any provisions relating to vaccination other than the one quoted earlier in the thread (which is from III 1949) ?

Who said Bill Gates invented a vaccine? I certainly didn’t.

@FuckeryOmbudsman do you mean the number of Conventions isn't the zinger it appeared?

Have had to wade through this as a primary care employer as well as on behalf of patients.

@ancientgran

I was listening to a doctor on GMB this morning, she made the point that if this is all about freedom and choice then patients should have a right to know if the doctor/nurse/whoever is treating them has been vaccinated.

I wonder if vaccine refusers would be OK with that.

Do you think the patients will have a right to be treated by medical professional who has no covid once the SI for actual illness will finish at the end of March?

@godmum56 Yep Austria who is so knowledgeable and certain about the vaccine that they are mandating it for everyone except ..........pregnant women??
Yet here in the UK we are repeatedly told pregnant women really must have it?
It shows how ridiculous the whole thing is becoming

@SweetFelicityArkright

Yes I think they will, as a pp said backing down will mean lawsuits from those who have already lost their jobs because of this, and from those faced with getting it or losing their jobs and have got it on those grounds.

The government have done nothing to counter the losses in social care in real terms, there's been an ad campaign and the 'recruitment and retention' money paid to providers to squirrel away spend as they see fit, but no actual real action to ensure that people are attracted to the sector and want to stay there, so I don't see them doing anything to replace the lost workers in the NHS, the ones left behind and the patients will be expected to cope with the fall out as has happened in social care.

The reality is that no one will really be that bothered until it directly affects them and then they'll likely blame the people who are involved in their direct care (or blame will be directed there) for being inadequate, and therefore nothing will change for the better and people who can afford it will get private healthcare and those that can't will get little to no healthcare.

Absolutely this. Remember it’s come from the government not the NHS. Us that already work in know we can’t afford to lose any staff.

@GirlInACountrySong

They must also be changing their hiring policy so you have to take proof along to an interview?

Madness. Restrictions are lifting so covid is obviously something to just live aside now

The NHS has never asked for proof of any jab when you have an interview. If there are vaccines you do need once you get offered the job, you get them through occupational health.

So this mandate means that unvaccinated people can not apply for NHS jobs? Even if they will be ok getting vaccinated once offered a role.

@Malibuismysecrethome

Completely irresponsible of the NHS if they lose all their staff due to this decision. I don’t see how it is enforceable.

It’s a governmental decision

They will.

And some people have already left anyway.

How will the NHS cope? It won’t. But it won’t because they have lost another 90k people. Nope. It will be because I’d the inefficiency of the system and the need to go private to remedy to it.

Can you see the tactic there? Same then when they run down the investment to be able to say it’s not working so we need private companies ripping people off instead (sorry private companies to come and save us I think is what they say…)