Do you think the NHS will really fire all unvaccinated staff?

[IncompleteSenten]

I just can't bring myself to believe that will happen. Surely it must be bully boy tactics and at the last minute they'll back down.

The NHS can barely cope now. How the hell is it going to cope with, what? 80,000-100,00 fewer staff?

Madness. Restrictions are lifting so covid is obviously something to just live aside now

Do you think there’s any possibility that’s partly due to the vaccines?

They have to have hep B vaccine dont they so i dont see the diference really-only that it wasnt in ther contract i suppose

@Dontrainonmyparade

But the NHS as an organisation has no say? It’s a government directive and it applies to all health & social care settings, not just the NHS. There is no employer discretion.

Yes.

There are five potentially fair reasons for dismissal. (The "potential" refers to whether a fair process is carried out, the reason itself is fair)

1. conduct
2. capability
3. illegality
4. redundancy
5. some other substantial reason

With the govt directive, it would be no 3 they use, which would need a fair process and a dismissal with notice.

They could also use number 5 for this in fact. It's a bit of a catch all, but loads of case law around it. Also obviously needs a fair process and notice period.

Many people in our trust have already left rather than waiting to be sacked because they feel that it is unfair.

The Geneva Convention deals with the handling of prisoners of wat, and the relevant section says:

"Among the special measures which the Detaining power must take in regard to prisoners of war, we would mention first very strict examination upon entry into the camp, thorough disinfection and inoculation with all necessary vaccines. These vaccines will, of course, [p.207] vary according to the climate and latitude (1) and will be re-administered as frequently as necessary; even if they are not in current use in the armed forces to which the prisoners belong, that is no reason why they should not be administered. Prisoners of war must be vaccinated as their health requires, taking into account their constitution and the risks to which they are exposed, with no restrictive considerations other than those accruing from Article 13 [ Link ] (which prohibits medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest). In this connection, one may also refer to Article 30, paragraph 3 [ Link ] , which states that prisoners of war should have the
attention, preferably, of medical personnel of the Power on which they depend and, if possible, of their nationality. prisoners suffering from contagious diseases must be placed in quarantine.
Careful attention must also be paid to quarters, and all necessary measures taken to keep them free of vermin. Lastly, prisoners of war must be given the necessary time and materials to keep their quarters clean, and the authorities of the Detaining Power must make regular inspections"

Also, it's no different from the requirement for NHS staff in many roles to have hepatitis vaccination and for some other roles to require other jabs as well. It's not a new policy, and it is not illegal either

I don't think they will. They'll say circumstances have changed. They can't cancel vaccine passports and self-isolation , and then say staff vaccinations are compulsory. It's inconsistent.

Yes, I'm not sure how far that has filtered through to the general public yet.

Isn't it part of the reason there is so much pressure on hospitals? No way to discharge elderly or people with care needs without a suitable care package in place?

Well, I've been looking for a job in the NHS and today, the first job in the list is for a recruitment team leader. I think they can't not go through with it, as stupid as the idea is.

They can leave it until the last minute to reprieve, however difficult that makes it for trusts.

@Bagadverts

I have no first hand knowledge of care sector and googled, only thing I’m finding is from November last year, nothing about what has happened since it came in.

That's probably partly because it's being written off ATM as covid absences. And because the carers left behind and the people being cared for (or not cared for) have little to no voice. Care workers were added to the shortage occupation list on Christmas Eve, if you Google care workers shortage it brings up a few articles on that from 24/12/21. At the moment we're just trying to get through it, and BJ and his partying make for sexier headlines than people not getting care and care assistants being exhausted.

I don't get why you are specifically targeting the NHS as this is policy across ALL health and social care. It was also decided by the government and not NHS bosses so not the "own goal by the NHS" people think it is.

In other countries who are ALSO suffering mass shortages in healthcare they actually didn't end up losing that many staff in the end, either. Staffing levels will be shit regardless because people are simply desparate to leave the NHS anyway. No one wants to wipe arses and take abuse from ALL angles (patients, relatives, bosses, other staff members, the government, general public - we literally get hammered by everyone including our own) for minimum wage when pointless "fluff" jobs get paid quadruple in the private sector and offer benefits like private healthcare and a much better work life balance.

We have here- I'm in Australia, and not just for HCW, many industries have. It's worked. We have a 92% rate in over 18's and minimal deaths.

@Fairylightsongs

Yes of course they have to, or they would have signficant legal issues from those who were forced to get a vaccine to keep their jobs. One hundred percent thr government won’t back down on this. They didn’t with care workers and they won’t with the nhs.

NHS HR Director.

We are already in the process of redeploying/sacking those who refuse. April 1st isn’t long to get it sorted in all honesty.

This also applies to the other vaccines that you MUST have to work in the NHS in a lot of roles. It's not a brand new shiny way for the government to suppress people. It is long running NHS policy that if you can't be bothered to get vaccinated against various things to protect yourself and the patients then you can fuck off and sit in an office somewhere where you won't be a hazard instead.

Also, mandatory vaccination is not new in health care. There are several you have to have, this is just another

@whynotwhatknot

They have to have hep B vaccine dont they so i dont see the diference really-only that it wasnt in ther contract i suppose

Main argument is that the hep B vaccine is “known” whilst the Covid vaccines are “experimental”. (Which is wrong.)

This is a vaccine that is very new that rightly or wrongly some people have doubts about. They didn't sign up with this vaccine as "mandatory".

If the government want to reverse ferret right at the last minute, they will. If they can use it to distract people from something else, so much the better.

@MollyQueenOfSocks

I can't understand how people don't see the correlation between the conditions you describe that we work under in health and social care and the lack of availability of workers, and as you say that the staffing is always shit with no one addressing that, and the fact that the loss of the few that won't be vaccinated wouldn't have such an effect if services were adequately staffed to start with.

I also think that the government is in a stronger position with NHS staff because of the vaccination requirements that already exist to practice for some HCPs, it happened in social care where nothing like that has ever been a requirement until covid, there was no requirement to be or show vaccination against anything to get a job as a care assistant. In fact up until a couple of years ago, the flu jab wasn't considered necessary for care workers (you or your employer needed to pay unless you were eligible for health reasons yourself) as the residents were all vaccinated - at least in my area.

@babyKat Doesn't the Geneva Convention only apply in times of war/armed conflict?

@HarrietteNightingale

This is a vaccine that is very new that rightly or wrongly some people have doubts about. They didn't sign up with this vaccine as "mandatory".

Terms and conditions change all the time. Lots were employed before CRB/DBS checks but I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be so complacent about them. 🤷🏻‍♀️

If they don’t want to comply, they’re actively choosing to be non-patient facing or out of a job.

It's not the NHS, it is political. Once the employer has looked at the redeployment options and gone through the medical assessment process then yes, given this is in Regulations, unless the government change their view that the political benefits to the 'I don't want an unvaccinated HCP/carer to be in contact with my relation' outweigh the operational impacts. As vaccines are thought to be a government 'triumph', I wouldn't hold my breath. Also, the precedent is set for care where staff shortages will be worse.

FWIW, I think it is unconscionable to change the employment requirements 'mid-career' in this way rather than the pre-employment approach for Hep B for HCPs but the government passed the Regulations. Did your MP vote in favour?

The staff won't be coming to the private sector as most have nhs contracts so need to follow nhs guidelines. Might be a few solely private hospitals but they will be few and far between My private hospital has said we have to be vac, which for me is fine as we have to have loads of other vacs to do the job anyhow

FWIW, we've had patients wanting to have spurious health conditions applied to the assessment process.

And a fair amount of assessments requested centrally too. Don't have good estimates as don't know what % of patients are employed as HCPs but dozens at the moment.