that is one brave doctor

[MrsLargeEmbodied]

to speak about not having the vaccination
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/08/nhs-doctor-challenges-sajid-javid-over-covid-vaccination-rules

he has had a lot of support

But wasn’t that the issue with Wakefield @ollyollyoxenfree. At the time he was making his claims about MMR it wasn’t very well known he was benefiting from people having the single vaccines.

The doctor in that clip is saying pretty much that the vaccines are useless after 8 weeks. I am sure that is not true. They may have waned slightly but they are not useless

"Who has said he needs to be vaccinated every few weeks?"

Immunity wanes after a few weeks so for the vaccines to work properly, we would need to be vaccinated every few weeks.

@toomuchlaundry

But wasn’t that the issue with Wakefield *@ollyollyoxenfree*. At the time he was making his claims about MMR it wasn’t very well known he was benefiting from people having the single vaccines.

The doctor in that clip is saying pretty much that the vaccines are useless after 8 weeks. I am sure that is not true. They may have waned slightly but they are not useless

Yes exactly, and more recently the "babyjabs" guy in the US. Publishes all sorts of nonsense demonstrating the harms of vaccination then directs patients to his private clinic for vaccines.

I think for this consultant there is a less obvious benefit in terms of his private practise.

And yes - his claims are certainly not true which is my problem with it, not his opinion that vaccines shouldn't be mandatory.

I think the key point is that the government are pursuing a potentially very damaging policy (mandatory vaccines for heath care staff) on how we wish the vaccines worked rather than how they do.

@Nappyvalley15

I think the key point is that the government are pursuing a potentially very damaging policy (mandatory vaccines for heath care staff) on how we wish the vaccines worked rather than how they do.

Yes, unfortunately this point has been muddied, and he's lost the support of collegues & peers, by attempting to justify it with statements about vaccination that aren't true.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Who has said he needs to be vaccinated every few weeks?"

Immunity wanes after a few weeks so for the vaccines to work properly, we would need to be vaccinated every few weeks.

I thought that the evidence was it starts to wane but the protection last much longer. Has anyone said we need to be vaccinated every few weeks?

The latest evidence (linked on another thread) demonstrates waning after the 8 & 10 week timepoints, but only by around 15-25%.

Unfortunately those with an agenda seem to only be quoting the first part of the sentence

Ancient - I think Israel is giving 4th doses.

@ollyollyoxenfree

The latest evidence (linked on another thread) demonstrates waning after the 8 & 10 week timepoints, but only by around 15-25%.

Unfortunately those with an agenda seem to only be quoting the first part of the sentence

When you talk about waning do you mean from serious disease or from transmission?

What is the percentage referring to?

@Nappyvalley15

Ancient - I think Israel is giving 4th doses.

Is he in Israel? I thought he was in London.

@ollyollyoxenfree

for calmly and politely making perfectly reasonable points which are born out in the current data we have on vaccine effectiveness is quite disturbing.

@Beachcomber

But this is the thing, he wasn't. The claims he is making about vaccine effectivness is not true.

I respect his opinion to not be vaccinated, but he is not talking from an informed position as he is quoting things that are false. It's frustrating that Javid is clearly not qualified to sum up the lastest evidence.

I think it is unfair to bring up his private clinic as an argument, although it does have to be said there is a huge precendent for clinicians to publicly speak out against vaccination, gain a lot of publicity, and then use this to promote their non-evidence based businesses which they'll profit from.

You may have more up to date info but wasn't it widely reported recently that latest information is vaccines wane by 10 weeks?

Can you be more specific rather than just saying his claims are not true, he is not informed and he is quoting things which are false.

Cos otherwise what you are doing is just mud slinging.

Where do you fault his logic exactly?

Do you think the DoH is going to mandate 10 weekly vaccines? Will they need to be 8 weekly in order to account for the time lapse of mounting an immune response?

I think we all know that is unlikely so what's the point in mandating 2 doses?

AZ is apparently a bit useless against Omicron after a few months, so in that case not just a waning.

Full analysis here @MarshaBradyo

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1043807/technical-briefing-33.pdf

Using this to make the statement "vaccine efficacy wanes after 8 weeks" (as he did) is a tad disengenous.

@Iwantthesummersun

Having covid is no get out of jail free card. Friends daughter has now tested positive for second time in two months.

2 months? You've not to get a pcr for 90 days post infection so that's rubbish.

@ollyollyoxenfree

Full analysis here *@MarshaBradyo*

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1043807/technical-briefing-33.pdf

Using this to make the statement "vaccine efficacy wanes after 8 weeks" (as he did) is a tad disengenous.

Ok I’ll look later. What do you want to happen..

If he doesn’t comply lose his job?

And how often for boosters for HCP?

You may have more up to date info but wasn't it widely reported recently that latest information is vaccines wane by 10 weeks?

Do you think the DoH is going to mandate 10 weekly vaccines? Will they need to be 8 weekly in order to account for the time lapse of mounting an immune response?

See previous posts. No one is suggesting a 10 weekly vaccine schedule. This doctor hasn't had any.

Cos otherwise what you are doing is just mud slinging.

Point me to any post where I've been doing as such. I've said repeatedly that I respect his opinion & the issue is that he's justifying it with things that are not true.

^ @Beachcomber

Ok I’ll look later. What do you want to happen..
If he doesn’t comply lose his job?

Have repeatedly said I respect his opinion, disagree with mandatory vaccintion & no one should feel forced into it @MarshaBradyo

@ollyollyoxenfree

Ok I’ll look later. What do you want to happen.. If he doesn’t comply lose his job?

Have repeatedly said I respect his opinion, disagree with mandatory vaccintion & no one should feel forced into it @MarshaBradyo

I didn’t read back but yes I agree.

@ollyollyoxenfree

Full analysis here *@MarshaBradyo*

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1043807/technical-briefing-33.pdf

Using this to make the statement "vaccine efficacy wanes after 8 weeks" (as he did) is a tad disengenous.

So he’s extrapolating that the potential 25% reduction in symptoms/infection also means it’ll be 25% less effective against hospitalisation too, which is wrong.

It says the analysis will be repeated after 7 days — is that available yet as it would have been a week ago now?

@ollyollyoxenfree

You may have more up to date info but wasn't it widely reported recently that latest information is vaccines wane by 10 weeks?

Do you think the DoH is going to mandate 10 weekly vaccines? Will they need to be 8 weekly in order to account for the time lapse of mounting an immune response?

See previous posts. No one is suggesting a 10 weekly vaccine schedule. This doctor hasn't had any.

Cos otherwise what you are doing is just mud slinging.

Point me to any post where I've been doing as such. I've said repeatedly that I respect his opinion & the issue is that he's justifying it with things that are not true.

Can you be more specific on "things that are not true"?

No one is suggesting a 10 weekly vaccine schedule.

Yes, well that's the point he is making. No one is suggesting a 10 week schedule because that would be ridiculous and totally unexamined for safety. Plus costly, impractical, etc.

So what's the justification / compelling science for mandating vaccines that wane after 10 weeks for people who have had a covid infection?

There isn't one. It's an ideological position not a scientific one.

I understand people saying they would not want a caregiver or medical person providing care if they are unvaccinated. I would not either. But, what can you do? You can't stop people like this expressing their views especially when asked a direct question.

I said on another thread I think the real issue is people by and large are not equipped to assess evidence and make informed decisions. We are very unscientific I think. If we were of the view that the population could hear whatever but be able to wade through the evidence and make decisions we would not care what people said in Sky TV. I made a decision to get fully vaccinated but if I am honest my decision was not based on logical scientific evaluation. It was probably based on fear and my half baked understanding of the science.

I have wrote to my MP to ask he supports removing the mandate, the TUC understand it will cause untold damage. 40 midwives in 1 unit are refusing, they are worried they will have to close the unit. Where is the unit? Working class area where services are struggling? a young mum from my City is all over the news, dying after giving birth, mistakes were made. More Mums to be at risk because of this & all in a few weeks, this is madness. www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/07/ministers-urged-to-delay-mandatory-covid-jabs-for-nhs-staff-in-england

@Jewel1968

I understand people saying they would not want a caregiver or medical person providing care if they are unvaccinated. I would not either. But, what can you do? You can't stop people like this expressing their views especially when asked a direct question.

I said on another thread I think the real issue is people by and large are not equipped to assess evidence and make informed decisions. We are very unscientific I think. If we were of the view that the population could hear whatever but be able to wade through the evidence and make decisions we would not care what people said in Sky TV. I made a decision to get fully vaccinated but if I am honest my decision was not based on logical scientific evaluation. It was probably based on fear and my half baked understanding of the science.

I work in a care home although office rather than as a carer but every single member of staff got their jabs as soon as they could. Some got them quite early on due to age or a medical condition and the rest got them when the whole home was done, staff and residents. It didn't seem to occur to anyone to decline, we had done everything possible to protect our residents throughout with staff being really careful so that they didn't bring it into the home and mercifully we didn't have any deaths.

Dear god... what vested interest do you think Pfizer et al have in ensuring that the entire global population need to be vaccinated ever three months...